Conducted by
Academy of Web Specialists
Take search engine marketing training!


10:54:54 mark g Barry what do you think of the new AV?
10:55:41 makemetop I'm actually getting traffic from AV since they started adding sites from Yahoo's New Sites page within 24 hours. It is faster too.
10:56:06 mark g I like the new design it's far better than the old portal model don't you think
10:56:13 makemetop What do you think about Inktomi's Web Search 9 launched today?
10:57:03 makemetop Yes the AV design is much more back to basics - and I think/hope the new INK might win them some clients back.
10:57:22 mark g Ink has taken quite a beating this year
10:57:57 mark g it would be nice to have a spread of search engines
10:58:00 makemetop Yes - something will happen soon - a have heard some informed rumours!
11:01:32 mark g Barry is one of the very best SEOs in the UK
11:01:36 makemetop Hi everyone - would you like me to start with a bit of background on the subject?
11:01:46 shermanhu yes please
11:02:24 makemetop OK - a bit of history - and yes - ditch the intro - it will make me blush!
11:02:37 makemetop When MakeMeTop first started providing professional SEO services as
11:02:55 makemetop a company in 1999, we found it hard to create a model which was
11:03:08 makemetop attractive to customers.
11:03:22 makemetop Few had any real understanding of the
11:03:35 makemetop benefits of search engine marketing and we didn't really understand
11:03:51 makemetop what our work was really worth! So we undervalued ourselves,
11:04:12 makemetop charged what our work was really worth! So we undervalued ourselves,
11:04:31 makemetop After about a year and having
11:04:43 makemetop nudged our prices higher and higher with no real downturn in
11:05:00 makemetop business - we went the whole-hog and decided not to accept any work
11:05:14 makemetop unless the client signed up for a year and the annual contract
11:05:26 makemetop produced a minimum of $5000 revenue. At end of 2000 when paid
11:05:37 makemetop inclusion, paid reviews and PPC really started becoming a part of
11:05:48 makemetop the SEM mix we doubled our prices again - and waited for the
11:06:02 makemetop fallout. It didn't really happen. Sure, we lost smaller enquirers
11:06:12 makemetop but we gained business from larger organisations. However, by the
11:06:24 makemetop end of 2001 we recognised that unless we were giving clients an
11:06:33 makemetop excellent return on investment, they were unlikely to stick with us.
11:06:44 makemetop So, we began to work closer with clients to ensure that they were
11:06:54 makemetop getting good relevant traffic and (within the limits of our ability)
11:07:05 makemetop that it converted to sales. Within a few months, it became apparent
11:07:19 makemetop that the marketing departments of our clients were working out their
11:07:34 makemetop cost per visitor and their ROI and comparing it to the costs of both
11:07:45 makemetop banner ads, other forms of on and off-line marketing and PPC costs
11:08:00 makemetop from Overture. The differences were frightening. On some sites we
11:08:11 makemetop were driving focused traffic for fractions of a cent per visitor -
11:08:21 makemetop yet their competitors were willing to pay (in some cases) several $
11:08:32 makemetop per click and still could make money.
11:08:41 makemetop It became obvious to us that we were still undervaluing our services
11:08:59 makemetop but how to get this message across? The answer was blindingly simple!
11:09:10 makemetop Paid performance. If you identify the market a potential client was
11:09:21 makemetop in you could identify the 'perceived worth' of traffic in that
11:09:32 makemetop market. For example take 'data recovery services' which is currently
11:09:44 makemetop over $10 per click on Overture to be in the top 3. How much would it
11:09:57 makemetop be worth to someone in that industry to have top 10 listings on the
11:10:08 makemetop major SEs for that and similar terms relating to that industry? The
11:10:19 makemetop answer was around $1.00. The sales pitch was simple - instead of
11:10:30 makemetop paying a $3,000 set-up fee which covers the first 3 month's services
11:10:39 makemetop why not use our paid-performance plan. You give us a deposit of $1K
11:10:54 makemetop which is fully applied against click-throughs and we charge you $1
11:11:05 makemetop per unique relevant visitor. Traffic you get going directly to your
11:11:17 makemetop website is not charged for - only traffic we generate on a separate
11:11:31 makemetop website - you the client can see the results in real-time - and you
11:11:43 makemetop get charged nothing further until your click allowance is used up.
11:11:54 makemetop If it is not used up within 3 months - you are entitled to your
11:12:05 makemetop unused element of the deposit to be returned.
11:12:16 makemetop The client nearly bit our hand off. They have done well out of it
11:12:26 makemetop and so have we - earning 4 times what we would have charged on our
11:12:35 makemetop most expensive plan.
11:12:44 makemetop Since then, this has been a standard part of our sales pitch
11:12:55 makemetop (although the number of $1 per click deals is low) - average per
11:13:07 makemetop click price is 22 cents and over 60% of our sales come from this
11:13:19 makemetop method - yet revenues have tripled and profitability has soared.
11:13:31 makemetop Due to the growth in recognition of the PPC engines (who still have
11:13:42 makemetop a part to play in our SEM strategy) this method removes the sense of
11:13:51 makemetop distrust that there could be when selling SEO services and can
11:14:05 makemetop provide a method of marketing which can be beneficial to both the
11:14:13 makemetop client and the SEO company.
11:14:32 makemetop Well, that's the end of the background - now for the questions :)
11:14:36 mark g dynamite stuff, questions everyone?
11:14:52 shermanhu All visitors are logged through a special domain specifically set up for you by us where you have full access to the referral logs in real time to make sure that the traffic generated is applicable to your site, and the phrases used are relevant to your market and services.
11:15:04 shermanhu that's on your site - how do you set that up?
11:15:13 shermanhu a separate sub domain of your main site?
11:15:37 makemetop Correct - we are in essence selling traffic. A completely separate and visible domain is created.
11:16:08 mark g that complies with the normal SEO rules, correct?
11:16:22 makemetop We don't use sub-domains but will call up the client order-form, contact data or perhaps ordering engine.
11:16:37 shermanhu so if I'm thinking straight...you would set up another site, related to the clients' domain or industry
11:17:03 shermanhu and all traffic you generate go through this domain, and the client can then track it effectively and accurately?
11:17:08 makemetop Absolutely. In order to do a decent job you need to have an on-theme site with the client contact details
11:17:15 shermanhu that makes sense!
11:17:19 mark g so that would involve the expense of Yahoo, Looksmart, Inktomi etc hence the set up cost?
11:17:43 makemetop and everything is tracked through this site. The site has to be suitable for DMOZ
11:17:50 makemetop Yahoo etc., etc.
11:18:08 mark g You mentioned the mistrust of clients when pitching SEO to them, this is a very real problem for a lot of us
11:18:24 mark g and one many of us wrestle with every day
11:18:31 makemetop Correct, we ask for the deposit to cover the initial costs of paid reviews, spidering etc.
11:18:33 mark g this is an ideal solution
11:19:10 shermanhu Barry, how do you determine the cost per visitor? which tools to determine value? overture? etc
11:19:19 mark g good question
11:19:42 makemetop Overture is very helpful - we look at the most important key phrase price
11:20:01 makemetop then look at the secondary phrases to give an overall average value of the traffic
11:20:25 makemetop Obviously this is significantly less than the top Overture price.
11:20:33 mark g others resources you use?
11:20:37 mark g espotting?
11:20:48 makemetop We also have to gauge traffic - it isn't worth doing this plan for an area where there
11:20:56 makemetop is no real volume.
11:21:16 makemetop Yes, Espotting as well in the UK can give a great indication - so does AdWords
11:21:24 shermanhu so lets say its $3 for the VIP phrase, and $2 for the secondary phrase, is the value then 3+2=5/2=2.5 per visitor?
11:21:36 shermanhu in general?
11:21:56 makemetop In that case I would probably pitch at $1.50 to make it a no brainer for the client!
11:22:16 mark g that's a big difference though than 1.50
11:22:27 shermanhu okay, because you know you would win with the traffic anyway right?
11:22:34 makemetop Exactly.
11:23:02 makemetop Another example with crazy bidding in the UK was serviced offices
11:23:33 makemetop Bids were running at £25/$40 per click - I got the deal at £2/$3 which was way lower
11:23:44 mark g is the take up mostly high traffic sites that already do some form of SEM?
11:23:55 makemetop but the client signed for a year with a ceiling of £7.5K per month. I'll have that :)
11:24:40 shermanhu do you have a set number of key phrases you agree on, like 10, 20 etc...how do you work this out with a client, I can see a client of mine having many competitive phrases for his site
11:24:42 makemetop No - most companies are aware of SEM but haven't done anything in the past.
11:25:22 makemetop We do it on the basis of 'key themes' rather than particular phrases. We select a number
11:25:27 shermanhu or is it based on dollar value they want to invest per month like your previous example?
11:25:45 makemetop of competitive phrases that we base the figure we charge on.
11:26:10 makemetop We only have 2 clients who have put on a ceiling - most want the traffic.
11:26:34 makemetop Obviously, it has to be good traffic or the deal fails at the first hurdle.
11:27:03 makemetop Touch wood, apart from a bit of fine tuning in the first month we really have never
11:27:20 makemetop had any queries or complaints - they love it. No ranking reports either :)
11:27:56 shermanhu any "best practices" advice for a seo starting out with this strategy for clients...to avoid the possible pitfalls?
11:28:31 makemetop Like all things - don't bite off more than you can chew!
11:28:57 makemetop Judge the type of client you are dealing with and their ability to pay!
11:29:21 makemetop The deposit we ask for often doesn't cover the actual costs incurred in building a good
11:29:43 makemetop site which we know will convert well for the client - let alone cover the costs of the SEs
11:30:05 diego So for a given domain / client, how many pages are you setting up for them (i.e. how much time are you investing)?
11:30:39 makemetop It really depends on the area you are in - a low PPC rate often means you need a broader
11:31:00 makemetop spread of terms. A high one means often a more focused site.
11:31:17 makemetop An average site is probably 10-15 pages.
11:31:39 mark g where does the content come from?
11:31:43 makemetop However I'm just starting on a car hire site which will be targeting major airports
11:31:54 makemetop which will be around 150 pages!
11:32:32 makemetop Usually it is based on information on the client site - but re-written to prevent dupe
11:32:50 makemetop filters kicking in. Often the client has dynamic content which has not been indexed
11:33:13 makemetop in any case so this is quite simple to do. Sometimes we just start from scratch.
11:33:21 makemetop We did on the data recovery site.
11:33:50 mark g do you give the clients access to your web stats?
11:34:21 makemetop Absolutely, they have full access to real time figures with the ability to check referrals.
11:34:44 katja if I understand correctly, you own the domain and the site that you set up for the client
11:35:08 katja so if the client terminates the contract he loses all the traffic coming from you
11:35:10 makemetop Correct - a contract period is entered into whereby we agree that this is for the sole
11:35:24 makemetop use of the client for the defined period.
11:35:49 makemetop We also undertake that if the contract is terminated all references to the client will
11:36:08 makemetop be removed - and they have the option to purchase the domain - though not the content.
11:36:24 katja Do you link to client's original site at all or this is really a totally separate issue
11:36:43 makemetop Yes - we are selling traffic. In essence we are setting up an affiliate deal with the client.
11:37:10 katja How do you get around with DMOZ?
11:37:19 makemetop It depends on the type of site. Take travel, we would probably call the agents booking engine within
11:37:32 makemetop the site.
11:37:58 makemetop On other sites it is a pure site but will have the clients 'phone details and e-mail will
11:38:04 makemetop forward to the client.
11:38:21 makemetop DMOZ has proved not to be a problem in most instances.
11:38:37 makemetop 8/10 sites get into DMOZ.
11:38:51 makemetop 100% get into Yahoo :)
11:38:59 shermanhu thanks...Barry, will redirection to the client's original site only when there is a need/ "call to action" like ordering, subscription etc? And do you redesign the client's main sites for more effective click stream / conversions?
11:39:13 shermanhu (if they pay you of course)
11:39:48 makemetop Yes - a call to action is the only real interface with the client's site and we do
11:40:08 makemetop work with the client to increase their revenue stream through usability issues if we can!
11:40:28 makemetop We need this to work for them for obvious reasons!
11:40:41 diego Getting back to the web stats, do you do it in-house or use a service like http://www.hitslink.com/ for the client to access?
11:41:19 makemetop In the main we use an SSI script which we have in-house which gives very accurate data.
11:41:44 makemetop Some clients prefer to run with 3rd part software like hitslink and we don't have a problem with that either.
11:42:30 katja 2 clients approached me recently- they are just starting and their budget for any kind of promotion is very low.
11:42:55 makemetop We prefer our script in that it is easier to strip out repeat visits whereas we find hitslink is not quite as good
11:43:06 katja Can for example I just start charging them a certain amount per visitor without setting up a budget with them
11:43:19 makemetop at identifying unique visitors.
11:43:38 makemetop Yes, katja. We have managed to bring on clients who are very nervous about SEO spend
11:43:50 katja can this backfire? Any experience on this?
11:44:16 makemetop on a PPC basis who have increased their spend and spread as their confidence grew.
11:44:49 makemetop I think we have been lucky, so far. You really have to assess each client. Some just aren't
11:45:17 katja What do you do with domain names- all the good one seem to be taken already
11:45:26 makemetop going to get a lot of traffic in their market niche. Some can't sell - either way you lose
11:45:52 makemetop We're in the UK :) Lots of .co.uk domains around!
11:46:25 makemetop Seriously, you have to be a little inventive without doing the spammy-spam-keywords-more-here.com
11:46:45 mark g they are getting tiresome aren't they?
11:47:00 makemetop I'm still surprised at what is available - I managed to get hospitality-management-college.com
11:47:18 makemetop for a hospitality management college (their main keyword) last week!
11:47:51 mark g shermanhu you're next
11:48:01 shermanhu thanks...Barry, let's say you have a client who desires to spend $5k per month, and you deliver more than enough to match that dollar value...how do you stop the traffic flow, if its let's say paid inclusions, but not through PPC? Any pull the plug examples?
11:48:58 makemetop It is easy enough on PFI - you can suspend traffic. Google is the real problem!
11:49:25 makemetop In reality, you can get a good indication of what is about to transpire and I've not had
11:49:41 shermanhu sorry for sounding ignorant, how do you suspend it?
11:49:46 makemetop anyone fail to increase their ceiling.
11:49:56 shermanhu lol, that's a good thing - refusing traffic!
11:50:17 makemetop Certainly on PT and Ineedhits (for Teoma) you have a suspend button for a URL.
11:51:36 katja Any complaints that the traffic doesn't convert to sales the way the clients wants?
11:51:58 makemetop We try and judge if that is likely to happen before we take on the contract.
11:52:15 makemetop Sometimes we have to be brutal and tell them - we can get you the traffic but you#
11:52:46 makemetop won't sell anything. We make it very clear that this is a partnership and we will do
11:53:09 makemetop everything we can to advise the client - but we can't close the sale - that is their job.
11:53:32 makemetop In the main, the message gets through and they look towards their own site/business
11:53:43 katja What would this kind of contract look like?
11:53:53 makemetop to see where they are falling down - not us. You have to make this all clear at the outset though.
11:54:28 makemetop e-mail me and I'll send a draft or I can give it to Mark for you all to look at.
11:54:32 journey ?Are your services priced to compete with the trusted feed programs from the major engines that will index problem pages?
11:55:07 makemetop Not really, though we do use trusted feed in certain areas. People tend to come to
11:55:17 shermanhu I'd like to see that contract too, if you don't mind
11:55:37 makemetop come to us for terms which are likely to be buried under directory listings or are pretty
11:55:48 makemetop competitive.
11:56:05 diego ditto on the contract. Also, so you really don't ever need to modify the client's site do you?
11:56:15 makemetop We do compete with L$ type listings though and we are not wildly out on the rest.
11:56:57 makemetop No, we rarely touch the client site. If we do, it is subject to a separate contract.
11:57:16 makemetop Nor do we charge for any traffic the client gets to their own site through their own SEO
11:57:25 makemetop activities.
11:58:18 diego What is the average cost per click that you can charge clients?
11:58:57 makemetop It averages around 25 cents. Lowest is 15 cents - highest is over $2.00
11:59:51 goodseed What is the email we can contact you at?
12:00:06 makemetop barry
12:00:22 mark g see Barry's site www.makemetop.co.uk
 
 
 

Back to Chat Index
Enroll in a Search Engine Marketing Training Program

This document maintained by RobinN of the Academy of Web Specialists, which offers online training in search engine marketing to students around the world.
©1999-2003 Academy of Web Specialists, All rights reserved.
418 Main St. #9, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019
(650) 712-8198