Chat led by Robin Nobles

Academy of Web Specialists

RobinN:how's it going tonight? ready to learn about cloaking? :)

RobinN:it's a totally fascinating subject -- very controversial, yet very effective if used properly

Mark Nulty:can we start at the very beginning please?

RobinN:first off -- for those who may be new to chat, if you don't type anything for a while, you'll get booted off chat for inactivity

RobinN:YES -- we *will* start at the beginning!

RobinN:so, every so often, just type "." or something and send it

RobinN:let's try this -- let me tell you some introductory things about cloaking -- then I'll pause for questions

RobinN:then I'll talk some more -- and more questions

RobinN:first off -- let's talk about what cloaking is

RobinN:with cloaking (also called "food script"), you create separate pages for each of the search engines

RobinN:for each engine, you create a page JUST for that engine --

RobinN:a very simple page -- no fancy HTML -- no java, no frames, nothing that could create rankiing problems

RobinN:then, you create a wonderfully designed web site that your visitors will love

RobinN:with cloaking, the script will detect who is visiting your site

RobinN:if it's HotBot's spider, for example, the script will "serve" your plain Jane HotBot page

RobinN:if it's Altavista's spider, the script will serve up AV's page

RobinN:and if it's a visitors (you or me), we get to see the beautifully designed page that's generally full of things that could cause ranking problems

Ty:what is the difference between doorways and cloaking?

RobinN:Ty -- the difference is that with doorways, you simply place the pages on your site and submit them to the engines or let the engines spider other pages to find those links

RobinN:the doorway pages aren't served to whoever is visiting the site

RobinN:they're simply placed on your server to be viewed

RobinN:YES, you can work with a robots.txt file and keep certain spiders out of certain pages

RobinN:but with cloaking, the script detects who is visiting your site, and it automatically shows that entity the page designed for it

RobinN:now, why would we need to use cloaking?

RobinN:let's say you're a webmaster, and you've been given a website to optimize

RobinN:but, they tell you that you can't change the page or any of the tags

Mark Nulty:so you can in effect have multiple index or default pages? the cloaked pages go to the specific search engines and the the regular index page goes to everyone else

RobinN:(it happens!)

RobinN:YES Mark -- exactly

RobinN:or, let's say that the website is utilizing techniques that create major ranking problems -- like xml or jhtm

RobinN:or, let's say that the keyword phrase is extremely competitive

RobinN:so, cloaking can solve the problem for you -- because you're able to give the engine exactly what it wants to see, but you're able to give the visitors a professionally designed page

garhayt:I'd like to have that anyway.

RobinN:Yes! I agree!

aliceworld:how difficult is this script?

Brian:Have you already explained cloaking Robin?

RobinN:the script itself isn't difficult at all Alice -- what's "difficult" is that the IP addresses of the engines change so frequently and without any warning. In order for this to work, you *have* to have the latest IP addresses so the script can detect which spider is visiting to show the correct page

RobinN:yes brian -- do you want me to mention it again briefly?

Brian:Please!

Mark Nulty:if I understand you right, you can submit www.whatever.com to the search engines rather than www.whatever.com/gateway_page_directory/keyword_phrase.htm

RobinN:that's correct Mark --

RobinN:okay -- Brian --

Mark Nulty:that's a huge advantage over gateway pages!

RobinN:with cloaking, you create separate pages for each of the different search engines

RobinN:for the HotBot page, you create it EXACTLY the way HotBot wants to see it

RobinN:you get the keyword weight right, based on top ranking sites of the day, blah blah blah

RobinN:same thing with the other major engines

RobinN:the pages are extremely simple, because guess what? the engines like simplicity!

aliceworld:My question (when you get to it) is how do you keep up with the latest IP addresses? Don't want to mess up the flow, tho!

RobinN:Then, you have your wonderfully designed page that is sure to impress your visitors

garhayt:And each one gets a different .com page?

Gary Woods:Doorway pages can still be a big benefit because you want to emphasize other key words.

RobinN:no -- they'll see each a different page, but the URL of the page is actually the same

Mark Nulty:and you're submitting top level pages, which many engines are saying that is what they want to see versus interiour pages

RobinN:anyway Brian -- with cloaking, a script is placed on your server

RobinN:when an engine visits, the script recognizes the engine by its IP address, so it serves up THAT engine's page

RobinN:so, HotBot will see only HotBot's page, and a visitor will see the gorgeous page that the engines would HATE

RobinN:Alice -- that's the true beauty of some of the software, because updates to the script come with the software

RobinN:the updates are even more valuable than the initial script.

RobinN:actually, you can probably find free script on the net, but you can't find the latest IP addresses -- and that's what you need

Brian:Does this require any special scripting permissions from your ISP?

RobinN:so, you need someone monitoring it constantly and sending you updates with the IP addresses change

RobinN:Not that I know of Brian -- no. But, I'm talking (okay okay, begging) John Heard with IP Delivery to create something that I can show to you all -- to where you can see cloaking at work

RobinN:before we continue -- any other questions at this point?

aliceworld:What scripts do you know of besides IP Delivery...just for reference?

garhayt:Why does the ISP have to approve?

Brian:I'm assuming then, that the 'script' (is this cgi?) resides in your root directory on the server?

Mark Nulty:if you get caught cloaking, do the search engines consider this spam?

RobinN:the ISP doesn't have to approve as far as I know

RobinN:Mark - let's talk about how the engines feel about cloaking

RobinN:for a while, it was considered a major NO NO

RobinN:in fact, I stayed away from it totally because of that fact

aliceworld:How long has it been around?

RobinN:now, however, things have changed -- and if you don't misuse it or abuse it, you won't get in trouble with the engines

RobinN:Alice -- I *think* 1996 --

vicki:what would be considered misuse

RobinN:you may have heard of John Heard -- he writes for Planet Ocean

Mark Nulty:.

RobinN:his company owns IP Delivery cloaking software

aliceworld:.

RobinN:the man knows his stuff in the search engine arena -- he's one of the best

RobinN:I interviewed him recently about cloaking -- which is why I wanted to share all of this information with you all --

RobinN:Vicki -- misuse --

RobinN:the problem is, gateway companies that do nothing but create doorway pages and redirect traffic (generally in the porn industry) have abused cloaking -- are using it in ways that it wasn't meant to be used

RobinN:what I've told you here is how it was meant to be used

RobinN:but, they will do things like --

Brian:This sounds like a wonderfully useful tool. The way it is right now, the search engines know that you can only optimize your home page for one search engine (in an honest world ;-) Which is the equivalent in the print industry of exclusively advertising in only one magazine. No one can be expected to make any money that way!

RobinN:utilizing major spamming on the doorway pages that you create for cloaking -- thinking that no one will know

aliceworld:Brian, good analogy.

RobinN:or, they'll "steal" someone else's top ranking page, use it for their cloaked pages, and get the traffic

Mark Nulty:as someone that is pulling his hair out even using hidden links on the homepage and hallway pages and still not getting gateway pages indexed, this is very interesting

RobinN:it's like anything else -- if it's abused, it becomes suspect. That means that you have GOT to follow all of the rules and not do anything that could be suspect --

RobinN:Yes Mark -- it is!

aliceworld:yes m'am

vicki:you bet

RobinN:another reason for using cloaking -- to hide your valuable code

RobinN:let's say that you have a top ranking site, and you don't want your competition to steal your code

RobinN:with cloaking, you can prevent that

vicki:oh really?

RobinN:so that your hard works remains just that, YOUR hard work (no one else is benefiting!)

Brian:Are these Active Server Pages or what?

RobinN:because the page that the visitors see is NOT the page that the engines have indexed/ranked

RobinN: no Brian -- just regular html pages -- in fact, if you'll look in the table of contents toward the bottom of the page, you'll see where I created some doorway templates. I created those templates specifically for cloaking -- but they can be used as examples for ANY doorway pages garhayt:And the engines don't mind that?

RobinN:Gary, the main thing you don't want to do is present something on your page that has nothing to do with your page just to get a top ranking -- but if you're utilizing text that accurately describes your page, and if you're utilizing no "suspect" strategies (like lightning fast redirects), you'll be okay. Just FOLLOW THE RULES!

RobinN:Brian, you mentioned asp pages

RobinN:that's another good reason to use cloaking -- if the site is totally database driven with NOTHING for the engines to index

Brian:Now I am confused though, if the 'scripting' serves up a page that's optimized for a particular engine when the keywords are searched, isn't the page that's presented going to contain the precious code that got you the ranking in the first place?

RobinN:if there are tons of "?" in the URLs, etc.

RobinN:but your VISITORS will not see that precious code

RobinN:your visitors will see the page that the engines have not seen

RobinN:therefore, the cloaked pages that the engines see are the ones that have gotten you the ranking

RobinN:does this make sense? have I lost you?

captmads:are there any problems with incompat browzwer vers

RobinN:no -- no problems with browser incom -- none that I know of

Brian:Uh... is this software released yet?

RobinN:oh yes -- it's available -- several different types are on the market

RobinN:NOW, before you rush off and order 14 copies -- it's expensive

RobinN:(why is there always a downside to every story?)

vicki:how expensive?

aliceworld:From what I've seen it sure is.

RobinN:IP Delivery -- the one I'm most familiar with -- costs $1,000 -BUT, you get constant updates to the script, which are invaluable

captmads:it's less expensive than hosting several dm s in the long run

RobinN:could be -- capt

Mark Nulty:yeah, cap, but about the short run....

RobinN:everyone doesn't need cloaking

RobinN:most people don't

aliceworld:Robin, if this isn't appropriate, just say so, but what are the restrictions, if any? Can you use it for multiple sites?

RobinN:if you're a professional web positioner -- you may want to consider it for your clients

RobinN:or you may not --

Brian:For that money... I'll have to settle for a white sheet over the server and call it cloaked! : )

RobinN:it's NOT used by all (or probably even the majority) of search engine positioners

Brian:A very valuable tool no doubt! Probably worth every dime. captmads:does an unlimited site lisence to food script cost more than 1000 smackers?

RobinN:Alice -- there are different guidelines for that -- I haven't gotten involved in how that all works, but I do know there are several different ways to handle it

Mark Nulty:Robin, am I being short sighted in thinking the advantage is that it will make it easier to get a search engine to spider a cloaked page rather than trying to fight through search engines limiting the number of pages it accepts, therefore the number of gateway pages getting through?

RobinN:One web positioner that I know charges every one of her clients the full price of the script and they "own" it if they quit using her services

RobinN:IF they use cloaking, of course

captmads:she's reselling it?

aliceworld:It is very client specific, I think.

Brian:Some good return on investment there... was she ever a banker?

RobinN:no -- she's not reselling it -- she makes them buy it from the company -- but other companies utilize one program for all of their customers. If the customers leave, they can't take the script with them. So, there are advantages to both

aliceworld:Her approach is much cleaner and makes the client appreciate (a little) what's going on here.

RobinN:Mark - that's debatable -- because sometimes you can get the engines to spider links on main pages and index all of those pages, and other times, you wait forever. The advantage, of course, is that the engines "sees" the index page. :)

captmads:have you implemented the script ypurself?

Brian:Still, a very good testimonial for the product I think. If she feels that it's valuable enough for all her clients to have.

RobinN:no -- we don't use it at the Academy -- we have created cloaked pages for a company (not me -- I strictly stay in training), but we don't have the script ourselves. I don't know if we'll get it or not

-garhayt:Can we get the engines' latest address ourselves to keep updated?

Mark Nulty:do you know of any amazing success stories?

RobinN:Wait Brian -- she doesn't recommend cloaking to all of her customers -- just to the ones who need it -- who are utilizing technology that could make it impossible to get top rankings. But, for the ones who need cloaking, she makes them buy it, and YES, she feels it's extremely valuable

RobinN:no Gary, that's the problem -- it's very difficult to keep up with them unless you're prepared to monitor it constantly

Brian:Application specifc basis then... I see.

aliceworld:I wouldn't even know where to begin monitoring it.

RobinN:Yes Mark -- I want to cut/paste some of the things that John Heard told me -- because it's extremely informative (me neither Alice -- would rather someone ELSE do that!)

captmads:My client has alot of java script etc... in the index page. Is that a good enough reason to NEED this

RobinN:not necessarily -- because you can put the java in a separate file -- which if you need info about that, let me know and I'll send it to you later (better yet, write and remind me!)

RobinN:here's something that my search engine optimizer friend who uses the software told me:

RobinN:"If the site is using technology like XML, JHTM, or catalog delivered pages and there's no way that

RobinN:the engine is going to get past the ? in the URL, that's when I go to the script. I use it when it's the only way it's going to get done." (from Ginette of Search Engine Services)

aliceworld:last resort.

RobinN:this is from John Heard (yes, Alice -- exactly) --

captmads:IfI'm not sure if you ansewred this yet...if I spend 1000$ on food script can I use it on more than 1 site

aliceworld:It's always good to have one (a last resort).

RobinN:this is in response to a question about how widespread its use really is --

RobinN:"In general, they don't believe it has widespread enough usage to warrant any special attention. However, they do not like any promotion techniques that misrepresent the content of the site. That's the number one rule and

RobinN:they will enforce it whenever possible. If you abuse that rule, you do run the risk of getting banned on any search engine, regardless of whether you're using cloaking technology or not."

RobinN:Yes Alice -- it's been used since 1996

RobinN:Heard has used the software at every major search engine in the United States with very good success since 1996. "None of our clients have ever gotten a site/page/domain banned because of the use of the software. But again, we haven't used misleading pages or content either. If you're not misleading or causing problems for anyone, it appears the engines take a `don't ask - don't tell' policy with it. There are no automated systems to detect a cloaked page built correctly."

RobinN:I talked to them about using spamming techniques -- and here's what they said:

RobinN:Spamming techniques may get you in the rankings briefly, but you won't remain. Ginette explains, "Think about the longevity in this business. You want pages that will remain in the index."

RobinN:you see -- with ALL spamming techniques, you *may* get a good ranking for a while, but that's not what we've after here. We're after LONGEVITY

RobinN:we want pages that are on top for our clients, YES, but we want pages that will STAY on top!

RobinN:(my gosh, makes our job much easier, doesn't it?)

RobinN:spamming won't accomplish that --

RobinN:I asked John about copying someone's page --

RobinN:"Copying someone else's page and `cloaking it' is a big mistake. The company you copied the page from will very likely find that you've copied the page because your pages show up for a "unique" word that was in the page content. If and when they find it, they will likely complain to the search engine and they will very likely ban your site because of it. There are also copyright and trademark issues, etc. So if you use cloaking, don't

expect it to work with stolen pages or content. Sooner or later, you will get caught,"

captmads:Dose the script allow a visitor to back up out of the site...or are they "trapped"?

RobinN:no, they're not trapped at all -- they're in your regular site --

RobinN:oh gosh -- let me find that URL of a cloaked page -- you'll see what I mean - hang on half a sec

Brian:Very interesting product Robin. I'll have to email you and ask you more about it. Meantime, I have to run. Thanks everyone, have a great evening!

Lisha:So, cloaking is just like an easy access door to your site.

RobinN:Lisha -- cloaking allows you to give the engines what they want and need to give your page a top ranking and allow you to compete, while giving the visitors a beautifully designed page that is sure to impress them.

RobinN:here's the URL of a cloaked page:

RobinN:100freescreensavers.com

RobinN:now -- let me tell you this first

captmads:What I mean... is, if the reach my index page from being redirected and then hit their "back" button will they be able to go back to the last site visited...or are they trapped in my site?

RobinN:this page has top rankings -- but its click throughs are not good from what my positioner friend told me

RobinN:why? because its title/description are terrible! So, yes, we want top rankings, but we mainly want click throughs. So, always keep that in mind!

RobinN:Cap -- you don't have to use redirects with cloaking -- you can, but I don't recommend it (if you can help it)

RobinN:any other questions before we go on to how we can tell if a page has been cloaked??

RobinN:(if I've missed any questions, please ask again -- I hope I've caught them all!

RobinN:when you pull up results in a search engine, then visit the site, if the title, description, or size of the page is different than what is shown in the search engine results, you can suspect cloaking

RobinN:here's something else from Heard --

RobinN:However, that's not foolproof, Heard explains, because cloaking is often used to play `headgames' with the competition. "The way it works is a company utilizing cloaking hides their html code for their top 10 pages but allows the competition to see a page that wouldn't rank--that uses say, too many keywords. The theory is the competition will analyze this page and use those keyword densities and placement for their pages. More experienced promoters will often go to the trouble of exactly matching file size, titles, and descriptions for their cloaked pages making them very difficult, if not impossible, to detect."

RobinN:now, here's one of the most valuable quotes that I can give you -- it's priceless to me --

captmads:that doesn't surprize4 anyone...i'm sure

RobinN:"Instead of spending your valuable time trying to figure out if a page has been cloaked, simply build a better page." (from Ginette of Search Engine Services)

aliceworld:more brilliant

captmads:so...all the same course rule go into creating the specific doorway pg's?

RobinN:and, because cloaking is an aggressive form of search engine optimization, it becomes suspect -- so that's why it's so important to be on the up and up with it if you use it

RobinN:exactly capt -- if you'll look at my doorway templates (on the table of contents page), you'll see examples of doorways created for cloaking.

RobinN:I worked with a company out of SD, and they used cloaking -- so I created those pages to help the students

captmads:table of contents for aows site?

RobinN:I mentioned the importance of updating the script constantly --

RobinN:here's something from Heard --

garhayt:Will they be effective if the engines' addresses have changed, or am I still missing something?

RobinN:"Search engines often times change their spiders' IP addresses due to expansion or changes in their systems. If the person is using an industrial strength cloaking software, they depend on these IP addresses to help identify and process the pages correctly for each search engine. If the IP addresses aren't updated often, the user runs the risk of sending the wrong pages to the engines."

RobinN:Capt -- of the lessons themselves -- not the main academy site

RobinN:alice -- let me tell you one more thing!

RobinN:"I believe we're going to see world-wide support for international search engines of importance. Also, we're getting more requests to include features such as delivering different web pages for users in different countries. Another common request is the ability to sense the speed of the user's connection so that cloaking software can deliver the user to a high bandwidth, regular bandwidth, or very low bandwidth (PDA). I expect the cloaking software to warp into something similar to a personalization system, that includes search engine robots, shopping bots, etc."

RobinN:that's in answer to my question about what Heard saw in the future for cloaking

RobinN:I thought it was extremely interesting!

captmads:does a site positioner usually charge a lot more for implementing the cloaking service/

RobinN:well, depends if they charge for the script -- but, the doorway pages are so darn simple that you can create then by the dozens

RobinN:also -- remember this

RobinN:cloaking won't get you your rankings

RobinN:YOU have to get the rankings with your blood, sweat and tears!

RobinN:cloaking will allow you to compete when so much seems to be against the page

RobinN:one thing you can do to see if a page has been cloaked

captmads:so...let me ask again...do you know if the 1000$ food script we were speaking of can be used on more than one site?

RobinN:this won't work with IP delivery -- but it will work with some of the other cloaking software

RobinN:pull up the page in AltaVista's translation engine

RobinN:if it's cloaked, AV will pull up the cloaked page

RobinN:BUT, not if you're using IP delivery

RobinN:it will only work with simple user-agent cloaking systems

RobinN:yes Capt -- it can --

RobinN:there are different ways to set up the program

captmads:what do you mean by diff ways to set up?

RobinN:you can sell the script to each client, or you can keep the script on your own server, and if the client leaves, the script stays with you --

RobinN:the positioner I talked to about this said that her clients never object to it -- they've spent a fortune on their gorgeous site, and they want some TRAFFIC!

captmads:so the script has be to implemented on the server-side?

RobinN:yes

RobinN:from what I understand, they set it all up for you

captmads:we just connected our server today and I have to learn all this new stuff...

RobinN:again, I hope to have something to show you fairly soon -- cloaking in action. John is going to be attending the search engine conference in NYC in March, and he has to create something to show there. He's going to create something that he can also give me (or set up) that I can show you all

captmads:as long as I get good instuctions or they set it up for me...

RobinN:http://seminars.internet.com/

Lisha:Ok,, thank you Robin, it was interesting,, good night :)

(Information provided from interviews with John Heard and Ginette Degner)

Cloaking

Chat Transcript

February 2, 2000

Chat led by Robin Nobles

Academy of Web Specialists