Conducted by Giorgio Volpe
Academy of Web Specialists
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08:05:01 g.volpe Understanding what your competitors do can be very interesting
08:05:32 g.volpe when I run queries to check my pages, I often find...otjer company's jobs in the listings
08:05:51 g.volpe and I'm curious to know what they do and HOW
08:06:28 g.volpe Usually, after running the query I have a close look at the results.
08:07:11 g.volpe and I usually check the top ranking documents, to try and understand why they're top listing
08:07:42 g.volpe if there's some kind of "trick" involved, who's made the page and so on
08:08:08 g.volpe first of all, I try to click on the listing, to see if the landing page is different from the one listed
08:08:37 g.volpe after that, I check the source code, to see if there's some kind of trick in the page
08:09:03 g.volpe as always, the command is: view-source:http://www.domainname.com
08:09:18 g.volpe at this point we can already find out interesting things
08:09:48 g.volpe Perhaps what we see on our browser after clicking on the listing is not quite the same page which is listed
08:10:21 g.volpe the page might contain a javascript that generates a virtual frameset and shows another page on the 100% frame
08:10:40 simone I've seen this one!
08:11:02 g.volpe As a result....you list one optimized page while showing the visitors a graphically compulsive one
08:11:24 g.volpe Simone, I bet I can guess who you're referring to :)
08:11:53 g.volpe The javascript can be embedded in the source or it can be put in a separate js file
08:12:25 g.volpe in order to fully understand what's happening, it is a good idea to have a closer look at the js file linked in the HEAD section of the document
08:12:59 g.volpe Apart from js and virtual frames (or simple redirections)
08:13:25 g.volpe looking at the source code we can find out tricky things with CSS and styles
08:13:54 g.volpe We might face a page which is "only graphic" at first sight
08:14:36 g.volpe and find out that the source code is filled with relevant text and of many keywords
08:14:46 g.volpe hidden with a simple style
08:15:12 g.volpe h1><font size="3" style="display: none;"
08:15:15 g.volpe like this
08:15:22 g.volpe Webman, please go ahead
08:15:42 webman Do SEs index CSS yet? I thought they didn't.
08:15:51 g.volpe (I cannotand close the tags properly otherwise it just doesn't work)
08:16:58 g.volpe there's nothing to index in a css file, anyway.....I guess engines like Google can have a look and check if certain style are used (such as display:none)
08:17:25 g.volpe if you don't want the spiders to fetch your css file, just exclude it through robots.txt
08:17:41 webman then what "tricky things with CSS" were you referring to?
08:18:25 g.volpe the "display: none" style is one good example
08:18:40 webman ok
08:18:46 g.volpe same story for "hidden" or very small fonts and so on
08:19:05 webman how do you use that one?
08:19:15 g.volpe I personally don't.
08:19:15 webman hidden
08:20:03 g.volpe it's not safe, I suggest you track what other people do just to understand what they do and NOT to emulate them
08:20:41 chezparis ?
08:20:54 g.volpe please chezparis, go ahead
08:21:32 chezparis So, after I understand what my competitors are doing, then what do I do
08:21:49 g.volpe basically, two things. First of all: try to find out more
08:22:42 g.volpe second: if they spam, consider reporting them to the engines
08:23:12 g.volpe How to find out more. There are several ways
08:24:06 g.volpe Let's say we see something wrong in the source code of a page
08:24:32 g.volpe first of all we'll run a query to see how many pages from the same domain are indexed
08:24:43 g.volpe sometines, we can find interesting things
08:25:16 g.volpe Here in Italy, for example, there are several people who use a php script to generate thousands of junk pages
08:25:47 chezparis What is the query to see how many pages are indexed? Is there a list somewhere of all these queries?
08:26:03 g.volpe chezparis: it depends on the engine
08:26:15 g.volpe in Google you'll type: allinurl:www.domain.com
08:26:31 g.volpe In AV: url:www.domain.com
08:27:57 gvolpe2 sorry
08:28:05 gvolpe2 I hit the ground :)
08:28:57 gvolpe2 After that, I usually want to know more about who's the owner of the domain. This is simple, you just query the whois db
08:30:08 gvolpe2 You might want to know a bit more on the server that hosts the domain
08:30:42 gvolpe2 you just go to www.netcraft.com and you get Sys op, Webserver, IP number etc
08:31:39 gvolpe2 After you got the IP number.....you might want to see if you can find other domains hosted by the same pc
08:32:33 gvolpe2 you go to Alltheweb.com => advanced search and use the IP filter
08:33:20 gvolpe2 sometimes you get some good info: you might find out that the junk pages you have found on one domain are just a part a bigger job
08:34:27 gvolpe2 at this point you can have a clearer idea of what your competitors do.
08:35:16 gvolpe2 Any question/impressions?
08:35:58 chezparis What would you do, for example, if you did find out that this competitor is all a part of a bigger job. What would the strategy be?
08:36:57 gvolpe2 Chezparis, I personally use these methods to understand what my competitors do just to know. I mean, I think it is crucial to exactly know what your competitor does
08:37:29 gvolpe2 Then if I find really bad spam I can report them to the engine/s
08:37:49 gvolpe2 But I usually don't do that unless it's necessary
08:38:18 webman What if the engines don't do anything even after you report a site?
08:38:50 gvolpe2 This can happen. You go again, that's all you can do.
08:39:33 gvolpe2 Here in Italy the top ranking battle is played by any means (I don't know if this makes sense)
08:39:48 webman I've reported this one site (reade.com) to Google twice already. They have the #2 and #3 spots for a keyword that they gained from keyword and link spamming
08:40:17 webman And still the site remains in the top rankings
08:40:36 gvolpe2 Webman, this can happen. if you type a query like "search engine positioning" in Italian, you'll see what I mean
08:40:55 gvolpe2 In the top 10 there are just SEO agencies.....and if you check the source code. you'll se that some of them do spam
08:41:19 gvolpe2 I guess they've been reported several times
08:41:39 gvolpe2 but they're still there, playing a dirty game.
08:42:09 gvolpe2 if you don't trust me, I'll pass you the urls :)
08:42:53 gvolpe2 Just have a look to the home page of the biggest SEO agency in Italy.
08:43:55 simone Which is the biggest here in Italy
08:44:08 gvolpe2 hehe, Simone...you know
08:44:13 webman I know it happens, but once it's reported, it should be removed
08:44:28 webman Otherwise, what's the point of asking someone to remove a site?
08:44:36 gvolpe2 You got it right: it SHOULD be removed
08:45:08 gvolpe2 I also think that who's spamming is forcing me to do the same. How can I compete with someone who doesn't respect the rules?
08:45:53 gvolpe2 Alternatives are: you change your keywords or ...you go borderline
08:46:56 gvolpe2 We always say that SEO is very time consuming. It involves high quality copywriting
08:47:59 gvolpe2 Why should I work hard if someone else can trick me and the engines in 5 minutes?
08:48:10 gvolpe2 The php script I was talking about. Here's how it works
08:48:28 gvolpe2 They have a list of keywords and some content (text)
08:49:04 gvolpe2 they put the content in a form and the keywords in another and then the script combines text and keywords and generates thousands of pages
08:50:09 gvolpe2 all this is completed with the patch_info that camuflage the Urls
08:50:50 gvolpe2 in other words, they transform urls like http://www.mydomain.com/keyword.php?val=x&pip=12
08:51:35 gvolpe2 into something like http://www.mydomain.com/keyword/x_12
08:52:14 gvolpe2 In the end, you get thousands of listings.
08:52:58 gvolpe2 Ok, what do you think about all this? Do you think it can be useful for you to understand what your (SEO) competitors do?
08:53:33 gvolpe2 To recognize spam-methods and so on?
08:53:49 webman I think it's helpful if you know how to use that knowledge to your advantage.
08:54:19 gvolpe2 Webman, have you ever talked to an account? ;)
08:54:41 webman I don't understand
08:57:15 gvolpe2 If you know what others do, you can distinguish yourself.
08:58:06 webman my point exactly.
08:58:57 gvolpe2 then...I know it doesn't always work, but if you know someone is spamming, you can try and report him
08:59:13 webman TRY being the key word
08:59:50 gvolpe2 Ok, before I get going one last thing
09:00:33 gvolpe2 Sometimes these tools can be used to get interesting data
09:00:53 gvolpe2 for example, the RIPE database can tell you something about the visitors of your website
09:01:45 gvolpe2 Once we found out that one competitor used to click on our Adword several times a day
09:02:32 gvolpe2 We just checked the IP in the RIPE whois DB and.....gave a name to this fellow.
09:03:44 gvolpe2 If you don't have any question I should go.
09:03:50 webman which fellow?
09:04:14 webman You mean you reported this person?
09:04:37 gvolpe2 a competitor with a static IP. The network was owned by his company. We just wrote to the company :)
09:05:24 gvolpe2 actually, we put down a Top Ten List of the competitors clicking on our Adwords

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