Conducted by Robin Nobles

Academy of Web Specialists

RobinN:Ginette answered all questions sent to her, and I have the answers

RobinN:I'll post them to the end of the chat transcript and send them out to whoever sent them

captmads:Is the price she charges for cloaked site diff then other sites

ginette:What I charge for services is an hourly rate cloaked or not

ginette:first off. I just want to say a food script is just a toll

ginette:please remember ther are no magic beans to positioning. itis a combination of many different factors

ginette:So do not go out and but the latest and greatest toys thinking it will do the trick

ginette:Most of you asked what engines are supported

ginette:At this time Alta Vista, Hotbot, Inktomi,lycos excite

ginette:direct hit northern light and generic engines/bots like webtv

RobinN:Ginette -- a question from Chris -- do you use IP Delivery or other programs too?

ginette:support for google and several others is in beta now

captmads:Yahoo!..?

ginette:I use many tools but only one "food script"

ginette:I do test and break a lot of "toys"

ginette:Yahoo is a human directory you would never do that

Chris Genge:I was referring only to food script programs

RobinN:Ginette -- you only use IP Delivery -- isn't that right?

valentijnb:breaking them?

ginette:For Clients YES

captmads:How do you implement IP-delivery script/strategy?

ginette:Yes I test for holes and ways to beat the scripts and software out there

ginette:We create eight pages which are engine food.they are ugly text pages designed just for the engines

ginette:we install the scripting t"tell the script where everything is

Chris Genge:When the IP addresses get out dated are these pages visible?

ginette:No the engine simply would get your real index page but usually they are still identified as a bot

captmads:do you create more than 8 pgs for other specific search terms?

ginette:I usually do not create lots of scripted pages. it is not needed to get the client what the need

valentijnb:does that mean that a script only recognizing robot-names is enough?

ginette:no, that can be spoofed. Look at anawaves websnake.. it will lie and say it is something it is not

captmads:So what then is needed?

Gerry:a good ip source maybe

ginette:It is on a site by site basis. are you asking about multiple keywords?

captmads:yes...

ginette:I can usually do 3 to 5 keywords on a single page

RobinN:Ginette -- question from the floor -- the 8 pages referred to are for the different engines?

valentijnb:and how do you solve IP-numbers for unsupported engines?

ginette:you must realize that some engines are theme relevant not keyword density relevant

captmads:please explain...

ginette:1 page per engine still equal the index page yes and so on

captmads:Do you create the pages with WebPosition Gold?

ginette:engine have identifiers -user agent etc

ginette:WHoa

ginette:Ip number are researched by John Heard and his staff

ginette:No I do not create pages with WPgold

Gerry:who is john heard

CoraP:how often are the Ip addresses updated/changed?

ginette:it is a fine product but each job is a custom thing I have templates I use to start with

ginette:John Heard is the president of IP delivery.

valentijnb:and for foreign SE IP-numbers?

Gerry:and where does he get his ip's from?

ginette:the updates are sometimes every two hours on weird days then nothing for weeks. It is determined by the engines and their visiting one of thousands of sites used to monitor this

captmads:can you say more about the templates you use?

ginette:My templates are a trade secret.

RobinN:you can create your own templates as you find pages that rank very well for particular engines --

ginette:I do not use any one tool it is testing testing beat my head against the keyboard and pray (grin)

RobinN:that's what most professional positioners do to save time -- if they didn't, people like Ginette wouldn't be able to breathe, much less be here with us!

RobinN:Ginette, you mentioned "theme specific" engines versus engines that consider keyword density. Could you explain?

CoraP:Is there any way to verify a food script is working or not working?

ginette: Yes, if you used a phrase in a search have you ever noticed the results were not what you expected. The engine keyed in on the second or third word in the phrase?

captmads:is there any special way to name cloaked pages?

ginette:Yes Cora We can test them by putting in our own IP Or I can show you one actually out there for all the world to see just for you

CoraP:yes please

ginette:Do you have an aol account??

CoraP:sorry, I don't. Is there any other way

ginette:Yes, but you see AOL uses a bot to cache pages

CoraP:ah, I do have quick access for AOL loaded, just need to get an account

ginette:so if you are using a script and AOL's bot gets you it will probably get the "bot" page not your pretty page same with webtv

ginette:just type in 100freescreensavers.com

ginette:I have exposed the food script for you

RobinN:(AOL gives away free hours -- you can sign up for free with no problem)

ginette:if you are in an aol browser you will see what a bot sees. Pay not attention to the template it is very old

ginette:but you will understand what can happen if you do not install it with the "aol" page

ginette:which is our generic page for bots and idiots pretending to be bots.. (grin)

captmads:is there a special way of naming the cloaked pgs?

ginette:no there is no special way but do not use the generic names that is comes with you will be found out..

ginette:make them up so they make sense to you

Chris Genge:can you use the keywords as names?

ginette:A really good way to test if someone is using a food script is Altavista's translator.

CoraP:ah, I'll have to try that!

RobinN:Ginette -- you can cloak interior pages too, can't you -- not just the index?

ginette:yes you can name them however you like just make sure you tell the script that too

Gerry:are they hard to install

ginette:yes you can cloak any page but it will be a ton of work

ginette:no easy to install just text edits

RobinN:Do you know IP Delivery's plans for including some of the international engines?

CoraP:so when using the translator for a cloaked page what can I expect to see?

ginette:we use text pad for that

Gerry:I mean onto your server

ginette:well if it is a smart guy you will see something like "no no that is not nice"

ginette:I actually saw one that did that

ginette:he did not want the page translated

CoraP:glad to hear they had a sense of humor

ginette:mostly the adult realated and gambling sites do this..

ginette:easy to spot

captmads:creating each cloaked page is a ton of work...or just interior pgs?

ginette:you will see something completely different from the real page ginette:interior pages.. I would have to make 8 pages for every 1 page on the site

RobinN:Ginette -- what about international engines? Does John have any plans for adding them to IP Delivery?

captmads:I see

ginette:This is where gateways come in

captmads:please tell

ginette:you put links to them on the engine pages and the gateways can have java redirects which engines cannot read and will not understand

ginette:Robin It depends on demand. It is possible the new version is broken down into little editable parts

captmads:on each of your original 8 pgs?

ginette:we can add things in on the fly

ginette:and possibly web based for those of us who do not want to play on the server

Gerry:And what would be the point of doing that, using gateways with redirects and indexes with cloaking

RobinN:great -- that's good to know -- Valentijn was particularly interested in the international engines

ginette:because you will still have to have a content rich site

ginette:you still need specific page counts on a site to help ranking

Chris Genge:Somehow I lost the point of the redirect, why do you need redirects

ginette:small sites do not last long in engines

ginette:you do not need them but it is an option

ginette:redirects are just an option.

captmads:how many pages to do consider "small" please give a range...?

Gerry:what about getting a good index and then adding a java redirect?

ginette:hmm. stes with 10 pages do well with a min of 200 links coming in and about 50 outbound links..BTW this includes links to interior pages

RobinN:Ginette -- are the engines getting "smarter" about java redirects? We know META refresh tags are a no no -- but is it still safe to use java redirects?

ginette:yes, but use with care. you still have people without java able browsers

ginette:Meta refresh are okay just give it at least 35 seconds

Chris Genge:I like Java Script redirects but other don't because it removes the back option is this not a problem.

Gerry:and it would be a little easier to steal your code wouldn't it using the java

ginette:Infoseek it the one that goes crazy and to be honest I don't care about infoseek

captmads:so the food script always lands a user on your index pg?

ginette:I sent Robin a note on a revised script that does the redirect and keeps the back option intact (Note: Click here for the revised script.)

ginette: Also featured in the SE war book last month

RobinN:Planet Ocean's book?

ginette:yes Robin

ginette:back to theme verse keyword?

ginette:AV is a theme synonym engine

ginette:it picks up on ideas not just words

ginette:this has been showing up in quite a few engines lately

Gerry:did anyone want the script? java redirect with the back button still working

ginette: so you have to do the research to find everything related to your keywords

ginette:the best tool is copernic

ginette:Also try flyswat. it is very eyeng

RobinN:Gerry -- I'm going to get it and post it here with this transcript --

ginette:copernic is free

captmads:what does it do?

ginette:you can start to see how the engines build relationships

ginette:copernic is a research tool

RobinN:Copernic is a search program that resides on your hard drive -similar to WebFerret -- only better :)

captmads:are there other theme related engines that accept cloaking

valentijnb:but doesn't that disables you to target a pages only for 2 keywords?

Ty:where do you get copernic?

ginette:yes it allows you to be more specific and keep the results in a format you can use on web pages :)

ginette:www.copernic.com

ginette:no, because in reference to a theme I build page sanswering the following about my topic how what where why who when

captmads:can you elaborate on this more?

ginette:and I am giving the answers to those questions as well as suggesting the exact question the user asks the engine

valentijnb:but when targeting for 20 keywords, how many pages do you cloak for one SE?

ginette:so we are now building the question and answer page

CoraP:two seperate pages, or one?

RobinN:which Ask Jeeves probably loves :)

ginette:V that depends on the site the site has to have at least one page that will do well for those words

ginette:ONE>> LONG PAGE hee hee

ginette:I limit clients to six words they can't have everything

CoraP:so for 20 keywords would you develop 5 pages x 8 for the various engines?

ginette:20 words is a ton of work but yes if I was using scripting

ginette:for less competitve words I do not bother

captmads:so you would create 16 pgs total for 6 keywords?

ginette:YES V not an ideal way to do it a strong site will get listings in editor's choice etc my preferred way to go

valentijnb:depends on the number of SE

ginette:I would create pages around ideas not words

ginette: a single word is worth traffic but not necessarly sales

CoraP:whoa, a whole new way of looking at things. Isn't that tough to get through to the customer?

ginette:NO, If you go shopping and ask for the mens dept are you ready to buy? if you ask for a blue mens tie are you ready YES same with engines etc

valentijnb:edditors at AV looking for a theme? hum......

ginette:they understand that

captmads:Do you then usally create only 8 cloaked pgs for your ave client?

ginette: A good example is the adult DVD market\

ginette:Capt I work on the clients actual site cloaking is used only for sites I cannot touch or they have a catalog driven site the engines cannot understand

captmads:adult DVD/ market...

CoraP:Ginette, can you elaborate a bit on the theme for the adult DVD market

RobinN:before I forget -- I'm going to contact the companies that have cloaking software to see if they'll let Ginette review their software. We'll write an article about her findings -- what works, what doesn't, what features are good, etc.

ginette:yes, what we found was that even though a lot of people typed in adult dvd they did not buy

ginette:but when we keyed in on specific titles WOW talk about sales

CoraP:Ah, I've got it now. Something we've been battling too!

ginette:you see the real client with money already knows the actor or title they want

captmads:You don't recommend cloaking for highly competive site that don't meet the other criteria?

ginette:you have to show them where it is

ginette:I do advise cloaking when we have our pages stolen often or we are using multiple domains

captmads:why mult domains?

ginette:I do not advise it for normal SEO opt

CoraP:What's SEO?

captmads:search engine optimization

ginette:I use tons of domains to work on one phrase or idea or even testing the clients marketing

captmads:keyword specific domain names?

ginette:yes

ginette:with dashes

ginette:do not go crazy here

Chris Genge:Are these domains specific to one client or are they multi purpose?

captmads:67 chaars?

ginette:depends on the client. Who is paying and how much

RobinN:I hate to be the BOUNCER here, but time is up -- (sorry!)

RobinN:Want Ginette to come back so we can't keep her too long!

captmads:it figures...ginette you are awesome...

ginette:long domans are nice but be very careful netscape cannot deal with them

valentijnb:cant we go on?

CoraP:ah, thanks Ginette. Look forward to receiving the answer to our other questions!

Gerry:can we email ginette?

captmads:I cannot deal with NS!!!

RobinN:I'll email those questions out to those who asked them tonight -then will post the questions/answers with this transcript too

ginette:you can email me diva

ginette:if you have a specific question If I can help I will

captmads:do you sing also?

CoraP:Thanks Ginette. appreciate you're sharing with us!

ginette:LOL no

valentijnb:thanks a lot Ginette!

RobinN:thanks so much, Ginette -- you know how much I appreciate this -

Gerry:how long has ginette been positioning

ginette:1993

RobinN:she knows her stuff -- and that's the truth! When she talks, I don't breathe -- just listen. :)

Gerry:i sent the script to you Robin you should have it know

ginette:Thank you for having me

RobinN:we always appreciate your coming so much -- THANKS!

RobinN:I'll get this posted tomorrow -- check the transcript site

Java Redirect with Back Button Working

John Heard of Planet Ocean said, "So what should you do if you want to redirect a visitor to a different page or site, but don't want them to get stuck (or mad) at your site? Ta-da - There's a better Javascript redirect method. Here's how...

"The code below combines Javascript with a Meta Refresh tag for browsers that don't support Javascript or that have Javascript turned off. It is designed to redirect a user to a different page or site without "trapping" them on your page -- something the search engines dislike as well, by the way."

Note: The above information came from Planet Ocean's subscription newsletter. Therefore, I can't post the entire newsletter here. Planet Ocean is one of the best sources of search engine information out there.

I'll cut and paste bits of the article here, to give you an idea of the quality of information available through their service. The article is by John Heard.

"Have you ever hit the "back" button on a site only to be returned to the same exact page where you had hit the "back" button. So, you hit the "back" button again and again you are returned to the same page that you are trying to leave.

"Maybe now you already know that you've been trapped by the "zero refresh" redirect technique. Chances are they really didn't mean to trap you. They didn't do it on purpose. It's just that the redirect code the site is using has a built-in flaw. Maybe you already know to hit your back button twice (or three times) in VERY quick succession to (usually) escape the trap. Maybe you know that, maybe you don't. Regardless, many site visitors do not know how to escape such a page."

Specific Questions/Answers from Ginette

How long does it take to set-up each keyword set on the server? I was told by IP Delivery that it takes about 20 minutes per set and that some people are automating this process using server scripts. For example say we wanted to build individual pages for 10 keyword phrases and promote them on 8 search engines. How long would it take to set-up the 80 doorway pages?

Ginette: 80 X 20 min

Has this time to set-up changed recently and/or are these scripts available with the program or do we need to have them written or programmed ourselves?

Ginette: No, but as you are used to doing some things it gets faster. The additional scripting you are speaking of would be done by you or written. It is a very custom type of script.

The search engine IP addresses are updated frequently. How long does it take to update the IP address information on each domain there is an update by software developer? Is this update time dependent upon the number of cloaked pages on that server or are these updates done to the script or program itself?

Ginette: It is 1 file. As for updating the script itself it is as simple as updating the modules again 1 file.

Can the page you present to the visitor be on any server/domain, or is there any limitations of where this page is located?

Ginette: Yes it can. But there are some modifications you will need to make for a smooth transition.

Can we cloak existing pages? Or do they need to be rebuilt. We are mostly running Unix and Linuex servers.

Ginette: Yes. What do you mean rebuilt?

For our pages on NT servers will the pages need to be converted to ASP format?

Ginette: There is an asp version of the script available

My client is purchasing the "Food Script" for the SE stragegy I'm working on for them. When I create doorway pages for specific engines/keywords how are the pages named...are they each named "index.htm.." or the main URL, or each given specific keyword-loaded names" or just how?

Ginette: The pages you create reside in a directory only accessed by the script and then fed to the engines. By default the page names are altavista_page.html etc. The index page on the website has only 1 line of code in it which calls the script into action. The real index page would be named home.html or something else. the script simply determines who gets what. That is all. Think of the browser specific java scripts. The index page housed just the script to determine what browser you used. If you were identified as using netscape you were given the page graphically suited to that browser type and so on. That is a very simplistic way to describe how this process works.

Does it make a difference to leave the meta tag info in the index.page and all subsequent pages of the main site? Wouldn't it make a diff when the spider comes back to crawl the site later or will it be able to do this with the "food script" in place?

Ginette: When designing your "engine " pages you will use of course meta tag information and you will do best to use the same information on the page the websurfer will see, so there is no tell tale sign you are using a food script.On your engine pages you will link out to all site pages. They will be crawled as well.

How much time will it take to cloak (lets say) 10 pages for AltaVista?

Ginette: You will have to have 10 different script installs each pointing to a different keyword optimized engine page. You still have to build 10 different pages for Alta vista. I would ask why you would do this in the first place.

How much time does it take keeping your cloaking software up to date?

Ginette: It is as simple as uploading a file and as for your engine pages you will have to update those as needed.(every engine hiccup :)

Have you experienced to be banned from a SE because of cloaking?

Ginette: No. As long as you are using relevant terms. I have never had a complaint or lost a ranking or placement.

Why are the price differences between all cloaking programs so high?

Ginette: That is a whole other topic. Scripting in general is expensive, running as much as $125 an hour for a programmers time. Then in our case you must constantly research and monitor traffic looking for new spiders from engines and sorting them out. There are some really simple scripts (superscripts.com has chameleon) which uses Client host information to determine who get's what . Please remember to keep what you are doing simple. I cannot stress enough that it is the page you build and the site on the whole that will get and keep a ranking not a "Script" it is a tool only to protect your work or allow you to get a site indexed that normally could not be indexed due to dynamic content or technology issues the engines cannot handle.

I understand that updates are important, and that some programs support updates for robot-names or IP-numbers, but there also is software available to do this for you. (Which is better I think when you target SE that are not featured by the cloaking software itself)

Ginette: Sort of there are ip sniffers but the problem is you do not know if it was a translator, a human,a NEW ip, the advantage is that IP Delivery takes that job out of the loop for you. How much is your time worth?

It is said that the software from IP-Delivery is the only one that couldn’t be detected or broken like a program as http://straylight.netmeridian.com/~delph/useragent/ True or False?

Ginette: You would have to ask John Heard that question. I can tell you that I have very advanced ways of detecting scripting and I cannot detect his for certain but I can always tell if a site is using one.

Someone said to me that he uses a cloaking program that doesn’t work with IP-numbers, but only with names. He NEVER had any problems with this (but he had the software designed for him personally).

Ginette: Ip delivery uses more than just Ip address to determine identity. I cannot speak of scripting I have never tested.

Is it really proven that AV for example have used a robot with an other name and IP number to detect cloaking?

Ginette: There have been rumors that a person was trying to make themselves appear as a robot from the engines but I cannot confirm nor deny it. I would not be surprised but you would have had to do something really stupid to get their attention out of millions of pages and submissions.

Does IP-Delivery has the ability of adding more SE? In particular, the international engines?

Ginette: Yes, they are adding on additional modules as new properties gain noticeable market share

Cloaking (Guest Speaker Ginette Degner)

Chat Transcript

February 23, 2000

Chat led by Robin Nobles

Academy of Web Specialists