Chat Session 

Conducted for Students of the
Academy of Web Specialists 

Led by Sally Kavanagh

Academy of Web Specialists

Take search engine marketing training!
Mon Mar 24 07:05:59 sallyk What I'd like to do today is put forward one idea for getting a site some traffic..........
Mon Mar 24 07:06:11 webman the bowels of Hell muwahahahahahaha ;-)
Mon Mar 24 07:06:34 sallyk I get quite a lot of sites referred to me where they are getting next to no traffic and are very sceptical about the web...
Mon Mar 24 07:06:51 sallyk probably because they are getting no business from it because they are getting no traffic..
Mon Mar 24 07:07:37 sallyk so I have to put together a low cost package really aimed at showing them what the web might be able to do for them, before they want to put money up front
Mon Mar 24 07:09:04 sallyk This situation comes about from two sources, its either sites that have been around for ages but were built by the MD's daughter's boyfriend, or they are referred to me from web design agencies, where perhaps the site used to get traffic but nothing has been done for perhaps several years and traffic has dried up
Mon Mar 24 07:09:44 sallyk I hope this is a scenario that you recognise/might be useful to discuss.  Any comments so far?
Mon Mar 24 07:10:24 sallyk I'll take that as affirmative
Mon Mar 24 07:10:25 aesopian Sounds good so far.
Mon Mar 24 07:11:04 sallyk OK, I usually start by suggesting a low budget adwords campaign.  Depending on the site I set this at about œ50
Mon Mar 24 07:11:53 sallyk The idea is that it will show me the keywords surfers are actually using, I find it more effective than say wordtracker, I'd be interested if others agree.
Mon Mar 24 07:12:30 webman Wordtracker isn't very effective, I've found
Mon Mar 24 07:12:40 sallyk It also starts to generate a bit of traffic and gives me a very good idea of how competitive a market I am working in - you just need to look at how high the bids are
Mon Mar 24 07:13:12 sallyk No - I can't get on with WordTracker very well, I am sure it is very good for the right situation, but not always mine
Mon Mar 24 07:13:55 sallyk I then do a very simple bit of optimization on the index page using the keyword that got the most impressions on the adwords campaign
Mon Mar 24 07:14:40 webman the most impressions or the most clicks?
Mon Mar 24 07:14:57 sallyk I prefer not to do anything very radical with the client's existing site - I either leave it essentially alone or I advise a usability report and possible rebuild
Mon Mar 24 07:15:29 sallyk Impressions - the idea being that that is what most people are looking on - I do of course temper that with common sense
Mon Mar 24 07:15:44 webman OK
Mon Mar 24 07:16:32 pnidoc not heard the term "impressions"
Mon Mar 24 07:16:46 sallyk I then write an info page, either targeting the same keyword more comprehensively or choose a second one if there are two that look equally promising
Mon Mar 24 07:17:20 sallyk Impressions are the number of times the ad has appeared on the screen, as opposed to clicks which is the number of times someone has been interested enough to click through to the ad
Mon Mar 24 07:17:44 pnidoc thanx
Mon Mar 24 07:17:30 Mon Mar 24 07:18:08 sallyk I then do a paid submission to inktomi to get some fairly fast feed back, and hopefully start getting a little bit of traffic from at least one engine
Mon Mar 24 07:18:33 sallyk fire away
Mon Mar 24 07:19:07 webman How many pages do you on Mar 24 07:19:14 webman charge
Mon Mar 24 07:19:59 sallyk if I am working for the really low cost/need convincing there is anything to this web lark type of client, I will write only one page and submit that to inktomi
Mon Mar 24 07:20:36 smartweb good concept on impression, but what do you do when the keyword is extremely competitive?  I have found to use worktracker to find out the comp on keyword phrases that would be low comp but receive good traffic.  Any thought?
Mon Mar 24 07:20:58 sallyk I may include the submission fee in the overall fee, depends, but I don't make anything over and above aslightly generous conversion rate from $ to œ :)
Mon Mar 24 07:21:36 webman Hey Greg.
Mon Mar 24 07:21:38 prplspud Sally, what's your success rate with clients, using this approach?
Mon Mar 24 07:21:49 webman good question
Mon Mar 24 07:22:21 sallyk Smartweb - If you are dealing with very competitive keywords this approach doesn't really work too well, you probably need to do more work that a half day (what I usually charge) will buy........
Mon Mar 24 07:22:40 sallyk hang on, my fingers are glowing..
Mon Mar 24 07:23:11 kengilley Sally, when you say low budget, do your fees consist of just one time set up fees or do they include ongoing monthly fees?
Mon Mar 24 07:23:37 sallyk also with competitive keywords the web owners usually have more of an idea of what they need to do, because they are in market that is already very well use dto using the web
Mon Mar 24 07:24:29 sallyk but yes, word tracker is good for that situation
Mon Mar 24 07:24:41 sallyk Nancy, success rate.........
Mon Mar 24 07:25:47 sallyk Its the most effective way of getting the sceptical to come on board.  OK they have got to commit about œ150-œ200 but that is the cost of pretty low cost ad......
Mon Mar 24 07:26:10 sallyk and if they aren't prepared to pay that then they are not going to get anywhere.
Mon Mar 24 07:26:19 webman It's too early for math...how much would that be in US$? ;-)
Mon Mar 24 07:26:45 aesopian 1.5 coversion rate, or so, right?
Mon Mar 24 07:27:03 sallyk you americans - multiply by about 1.5 and you won't be far out. ie œ100 = $150  :)  I like using google because it
Mon Mar 24 07:27:44 beth 150.00 pounds = about 236.00 US
Mon Mar 24 07:28:16 sallyk provides immediate results, there is no taking me on trust at least for that bit of the budget.  If you pay œ50 then you are going to get œ50 worth of traffic in terms of clicks and you can even tell them the cost per click.
Mon Mar 24 07:28:18 smartweb I'm thinking on the same line and the best approach I have read is to do a lot of linking and build many mini sites for keywords and several directory type sites to get traffic to them for the purpose of information such as how to's and articles and provide links tothe main site you are wanting traffic too.
Mon Mar 24 07:28:22 webman $225 - $300 if multiplying each amount by 1.5
Mon Mar 24 07:29:55 sallyk I am not saying this is the best way of designing a good traffic generation programme - but I what I am suggesting is that it is a good way of getting some results with a very low budget so you can then go back to the client and say........
Mon Mar 24 07:30:01 webman That's a great strategy smartweb, once they actually pony up the cash, but not while they're being all Scrooke-like
Mon Mar 24 07:30:06 webman Scrooge-like.
Mon Mar 24 07:30:23 smartweb Correct
Mon Mar 24 07:31:07 sallyk look, I can get traffic to your site, and if its worth it to you and you are converting it well enough, lets do the thing properly, and that's when the mini sites and the link building comes into play
Mon Mar 24 07:31:38 sallyk but both those techniques are risky in that they are long term strategies and don't guarantee traffic.
Mon Mar 24 07:32:18 sallyk Another advantage of this approach is helping the client find out if there is any point in him getting lots of traffic to his site......
Mon Mar 24 07:32:32 smartweb what is the best apprach for short term for very competitive kewwords?
Mon Mar 24 07:32:47 webman pray...
Mon Mar 24 07:33:23 sallyk I have mentioned this one to  you before, but my classic case was I did an adwords for a client that generated 3000 hits to his site in one month, and he couldn't see any increase in sales, and that was from a base line of more or less zero.
Mon Mar 24 07:33:47 prplspud yikes.
Mon Mar 24 07:33:50 sallyk there was a question way back, I think it was how do I charge this out
Mon Mar 24 07:34:11 smartweb I like the humor.. better do a lot of it
Mon Mar 24 07:35:16 webman what, smartweb? praying? Some times a sacrifice can work wonders too! ;-)
Mon Mar 24 07:35:16 sallyk I usually say, œ50 for adwords, plus half a day of my time (œ120), I may add œ25 for the inktomi submission, and I may add œ5 a month for setting up a hitslink account.
Mon Mar 24 07:35:52 sallyk I should say I usually spend rather more than half a day, but then part of the idea is to get a good account at the end of the day
Mon Mar 24 07:36:09 tabby602 do you consider short term, 2 months, 3 months, 6 months?
Mon Mar 24 07:36:45 sallyk I know this is all in œ, but the amounts don't really matter too much, just set them at what the client will pay to get off the ground, so long as it is worth it to you if it doesn't go any further
Mon Mar 24 07:37:43 sallyk I reckon it really takes at least six months to get good results...
Mon Mar 24 07:38:17 sallyk but quite often a client is not prepared to wait that time, I do quite a lot with tourist related sites and its this time of year when all the bookings are made
Mon Mar 24 07:38:56 sallyk so I like to think I can get as far as generating some worthwhile traffic in about a month...........
Mon Mar 24 07:39:17 sallyk but what I am really trying to show is the potential of the web for that client
Mon Mar 24 07:40:12 sallyk I've lost track a bit, are there any questions I have missed or not answered properly
Mon Mar 24 07:40:29 sallyk yes nancy
Mon Mar 24 07:40:35 prplspud What did you do with the guy that saw no increase in sales?
Mon Mar 24 07:41:34 sallyk A usability report and I am currently working with an web agency to do some drastic things to his navigation
Mon Mar 24 07:41:48 smartweb webman - yes, lots of praying. I have worked on sites that are not as compettive as my company and recieve good results for them. Competitive keywords take time and sacrifice. Your right.
Mon Mar 24 07:43:20 sallyk going back to point about how does this work with competitive keywords and using wordtracker to use less competitive ones, the problem I find is that you need a well educated client before you can explain about using more cost effective keywords and the ones who haven't really use dthe web to get business don't understand......
Mon Mar 24 07:43:59 sallyk In other words, they want the really competitive ones, even quite absurd ones...
Mon Mar 24 07:44:43 sallyk I was talking to villa owner this morning, who wanted the word 'tranquil' to come into the optimization becuase the villa is in a quiet location
Mon Mar 24 07:44:47 webman yeah, like "women" ;-)
Mon Mar 24 07:45:32 sallyk not sure what you mean webman - not that women doen't understand the web :)
Mon Mar 24 07:45:47 webman I got that request from a new women's magazine I'm optimizing
Mon Mar 24 07:46:01 sallyk I see!!
Mon Mar 24 07:46:02 webman I meant I got a request to optimize for the term "women"
Mon Mar 24 07:46:17 sallyk yes I know - just being awkward that's all
Mon Mar 24 07:46:40 smartweb If you do the job rright ones that are not as competitive can actually bring more business.  Because it is not as hard to get to the top and I have found to have a more educated buyer.
Mon Mar 24 07:47:29 sallyk anyway that's how I deal with the new client that needs convincing that the web has something to offer him, anyone like to offer any comments on how they approach this scenario
Mon Mar 24 07:48:25 sallyk yes I agree smartweb, but sometimes you need to educate the web owner as well, again adwords can help........
Mon Mar 24 07:48:47 smartweb your right and I have not thought of adwords approach I like it.
Mon Mar 24 07:48:55 nachtman How do you get from adwords to the next step?  And what should that step be?
Mon Mar 24 07:48:59 sallyk show him the cost of bidding on expensive keyword and then show how much further his budget would go with a less expensive one..
Mon Mar 24 07:49:03 shermanhu haven't had to convince anyone yet about the power of the web - but I would passon a few articles about it - and in general, my role is not to convince about whether they need optimization or not, but if they want it
Mon Mar 24 07:49:09 shermanhu hope that helps
Mon Mar 24 07:49:55 webman True, but in a truly competitive field, like mortgages, the only option you have is to use regionalized keywords that only a handful of people click on, according to Wordtracker. Getting to the top there shouldn't be hard, but shouldn't be particularly helpful either.
Mon Mar 24 07:50:22 smartweb I find people want it, but are they willing to pay for it
Mon Mar 24 07:50:28 sallyk I use the adwords to show the client which keywords it is most beneficial for me to optimise on
Mon Mar 24 07:50:54 sallyk you mean not willing to pay?
Mon Mar 24 07:51:23 smartweb webman - that goes back to mini site and directory concept.
Mon Mar 24 07:52:20 sallyk If you are dealing with very competitive keywords you have lots of other problems as well though - like link pop.  Thereare no quickshort cuts there.
Mon Mar 24 07:52:25 webman OK, but when you have 50 sites to optimize, how many minisites to you build for each site, expecially considering the client wants the optimization done yesterday and is paying you next to nothing.Mon Mar 24 07:52:53 sallyk but surely a site that is going to sell mortgages on line has some knowledge of what the web market is all about.
Mon Mar 24 07:53:11 smartweb sallyk - pay the price that is needed to get the results they are really wanting.  I like the idea to show so results on a small picture then show what can be acheive on the large picture.
Mon Mar 24 07:53:32 sallyk They should be even in it if they are interested in a œ200  or $300 intro package
Mon Mar 24 07:53:48 webman true, but because he has so many sites to optimize, this client offered to take me in as a partner and give me my money off the back end when orders start comin gin (if they ever do)
Mon Mar 24 07:53:54 webman coming in
Mon Mar 24 07:54:53 sallyk I must stress that this intro package only works for certain sorts of sites.......
Mon Mar 24 07:55:49 sallyk for instance, the local sweet shop specialises in selling the sort of sweets you had when you where young and perhaps the supermarkets don't stock.  They had got a small ecommerce site and hardly any traffic........
Mon Mar 24 07:56:23 sallyk weren't sure whether to close it down and save the œ15 a month it was costing to run or put some promotion into it..........
Mon Mar 24 07:56:52 sallyk this was just before christmas and I to put a notice on the site saying that they had run out of stock in a week
Mon Mar 24 07:57:23 sallyk I didn't get that much traffic, it was just it was a very large percentage increase and showed them was potential in promoting their Web site.
Mon Mar 24 07:57:31 smartweb webman - that is the problem with having to build so many sites for comptitive keywords.  Getting the client to understand.  Based on what sallyK is stating why not build one mini and get traffic.  Show it works and go for the rest.
Mon Mar 24 07:57:57 prplspud I have a question about mini sites...?
Mon Mar 24 07:58:19 smartweb shoot
Mon Mar 24 07:58:21 prplspud Is it still important to have totally separate branding and content?
Mon Mar 24 07:58:24 webman Because for the $100 per month per site that he's paying me, it's just not worth it.
Mon Mar 24 07:58:26 sallyk They weren't being greedy - and only scrooge like for very sound commercial reasons - but it would have been a shame if they had close dthe site down.
Mon Mar 24 07:58:54 prplspud I have a client with a big corporate site who really should have mini sites targetting some of their product lines...branding is important tothem.
Mon Mar 24 07:59:42 webman Well, thanks for the advice Sally and smartweb.
Mon Mar 24 07:59:50 webman I have to go now.
Mon Mar 24 07:59:54 sallyk This is exciting - we are getting onto other topics - perhaps we should leave it there for this time,
Mon Mar 24 08:00:30 prplspud Sally, I really like this approach. I just started something similar for someone else...
Mon Mar 24 08:00:30 sallyk thanks for all your input - time has flown.
Mon Mar 24 08:00:48 prplspud What's really motivated them is seeing their web site come up in the Ad Words for so little money.
Mon Mar 24 08:00:56 prplspud I think the ego responds well to this.
Mon Mar 24 08:01:41 sallyk its also confidence, noone like commiting money without knowing what the results are going to be, thats why ad salesmen have to work so hard
Mon Mar 24 08:01:55 joopiter
Mon Mar 24 08:02:04 prplspud well, one advantage we have is that the web is so very trackable!
Mon Mar 24 08:02:41 sallyk yes, it's what you want it to be - I think someone has already coined that phrase!
Mon Mar 24 08:02:58 prplspud LOL, I have to run, thanks for your time.
Mon Mar 24 08:03:23 nachtman Thanks - good session!
Mon Mar 24 08:03:32 sallyk I'm exhausted - never typed so fast, see you all again I hope , meant to say - sorry if anyone came to my chat earlier in the month.