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Chat Session
Conducted for Students of the
Academy of
Web Specialists
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SEO Contracts
Led by Robin Nobles
October 23,
2002
Academy of Web
Specialists
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11:02:01 robin I asked for folks to send me
copies of their SEO contracts, and I didn't get a single one!
11:02:26 robin BUT, I did get a few that I've sent to John
for the pricing structure chat, which is good -- and an idea for a proposal
chat, which we'll do in November too
11:02:59
robin so, we'll just look at our "standard" contract that we created a few
years ago and see if there are any changes we need to make to it to get it up
to speed with today's market
11:07:30 robin that
is so strange -- I cut/pasted the EXACT URL here. Anyway, go to this
URL:
11:07:48 guest34
http://www.onlinewebtraining.com/chat/StandardContract.html
11:08:12 robin
http://www.onlinewebtraining.com/chat/chatindex.htm
11:09:09 robin this standard contract was created by
compiling a bunch of other contracts and taking bits and pieces from them and
deciding what worked and what was needed.
11:09:25 robin we gave a lot of leeway for differences in the way
SEO companies run their businesses --
11:09:56
robin so that's why there are a lot of "variations" listed -- to get your mind
working in that direction to see if it's something your company does and needs
to consider in a contract
11:11:36 robin #1
basically outlines the general work to be performed -- whether web design
services, optimization, etc. It can also outline specific keywords IF YOU
CHOOSE
11:13:13 robin any comments? any changes
that need to be made here? many companies will actually outline the specific
keywords. others will outline the keyword focus, because the SEO will want the
leeway to choose the most effective keywords after doing some
research
11:13:46 robin or, the SEO may have
already done the keyword research by this time and have good ideas. What you
don't want to do is spend a tremendous amount of time on keyword research
BEFORE you get a signed contract! A small amount -- sure
11:14:50 webman Wouldn't you sign a contract before doing
keyword researh. I mean, I would do some work to see how busy the field is, but
other than that, I really wouldn't work too hard before signing a
contract
11:15:29 robin of course, in #1, you can
also list the major engines that you'll be targeting, which will be quite
different than the engines we targeted when this contract was
written!
11:16:58 robin yes Gil -- that's right.
You may want to do some research beforehand, because there are certainly
benefits to doing a little. But, you need a signed contract before beginning
too much work. Too many people will want you to do a lot of work for free and
then not sign the contract if you don't :*
11:17:29 prplspud I was talking this am with someone who is stuck
working with a client at a lower rate because she didn't allow for
renewals/terminations in her contracts. The client keeps coming back, but she
doesn't have much of a leg to stand on to raise her rates...
11:17:46 prplspud There should be a clause to address
pricing changes, either from us or the SEs.
11:19:01 robin I'll make a note of that and see where the best
place to add it would be. We also need to take into account things like pay
inclusion costs, which weren't such an issue when this was written -- as well
as pay keyword campaigns, which weren't big back then at all
11:19:18 prplspud Also, maybe whether or not the client
provides a cc for PPC and Yahoo...
11:19:53 robin
huge issues now, and getting even bigger
11:20:09
prplspud There's tremendous exposure when we're floating the costs.
11:20:27 robin in #2, it discusses payment and maintenance
plans. There are so many pricing structures that we won't get into them here,
but John will get into them next week.
11:21:03
robin however, it's very important to get some money up front -- I've seen a
lot of people burned by not doing so --
11:22:03
robin this contract tries to make it clear what is part of the payment process
-- whether it's a payment schedule, 100% up front, discounts for annual
payments, etc. And, it outlines exactly what's involved in the maintenance
stage -- which is important too -- to be VERY clear
11:22:27 robin any comments on any of these areas? things to
suggest for improvement? things we might have forgotten or that needed to be
added now since things have changed?
11:22:54 dan
What does this include: ongoing monthly maintenance fees for provided
services
11:23:00 robin those of you who have a
contract now, be sure to let us know things that might be missing from this
contract --
11:23:39 robin Dan, under #2, it
discusses what could be included in the maintenance stage -- weekly reports,
reoptimize if rankings drop, etc.
11:24:03 peace
I wish you saw mine Robin. it works like a charm and is rarely over 1
page.
11:24:52 robin hey -- send it to me and
I'll post it online. we tried to cover all areas in this contract, but you'll
want YOUR contract to be specific for YOUR business
11:25:28 robin RobinN (doesn't matter which email
address you use -- I'll get it!)
11:26:47 peace
really though, I have zero collections problems and no problem getting at least
%)% deposit with my one pager
11:27:19 robin what
percentage to you ask for as a deposit?
11:27:19
peace first I talk with them on the phone and they are usually confused so I
offer to draft them a proposal...
11:27:41 peace
the proposal is almost always fit on one page...
11:28:19 robin (speaking of the phone, I think that's something
that so many of us "Internet" people don't use enough -- there's a lot of power
in the human voice, and if you're trying to make a sale, you can often do it
better on the phone)
11:28:44 robin plus, it's
the "personal touch" that's so important
11:29:46
robin if you don't mind sharing the proposal Peace (if you have a standard
one), I'll save it for the "proposal" chat in November, and post it online. I'd
like to have a pile of resources just for the professional SEO, like ideas for
contracts, pricing structures, proposals, etc.
11:29:56 robin peace, go on, please, with how you handle new
clients
11:30:10 robin (do you tell them any of
your jokes, or save that for after they really get to know you?)
11:34:04 robin but, as an SEO, if you're going to purchase a
domain for your client and host it on your server, who owns the domain if the
client quits using your services? That needs to be outlined very clearly. This
one area is the source of a lot of hard feelings and problems if not outlined
and explained carefully
11:34:08 robin guest -
sounds great!
11:34:11 robin Gil, your
question?
11:34:15 webman What's the differense
between Yahoo WebSites and Yahoo Express?
11:34:29 webman as listed in the kontrakt
11:35:01 robin in the contract we're looking at now? the
standard contract?
11:35:44 robin okay, back in
the "old" days, you didn't have to pay to be included in Yahoo!. But, if you
wanted to speed up the process, you could pay to do so through their "express
submission" service
11:35:59 webman Oh, OK
thanks.
11:36:18 robin obviously, a lot of the
engines/directories listed here have changed. things were different back then!
a LOT of engines (no monopolies!)
11:36:58 robin
okay -- finish telling us about how you work with new clients Peace
11:37:44 peace In the proposal I outline each aspect of
job...
11:38:03 peace keyword research, SEO,
indexing...
11:38:29 peace then I say as a client
I will advise them on the most crucial and savvy PPI's...
11:39:06 peace then the is an "associated costs" box with
all the rates for the three main htings mentioned...
11:39:29 peace then I suggest they consider a 3-6 mo monthly
stipend....
11:39:32 peace but...
11:40:02 peace the only prices they see initially are forthe
page optimizations and the indexing...
11:40:08
peace terms are...
11:40:44 peace if the proposal
is for over $1000 then they deposit 50% w/ balance due net 30...
11:41:08 peace When they sign and date this proposal it
becomes our contract.
11:41:25 peace I've RARELY
had a problem this way!
11:41:48 robin okay,
that's one of the things we mention in this contract -- rather, one of the
suggestions (under #2)
11:41:51 robin anything
else Peace?
11:42:48 robin under #3 of the
contract . . .
11:42:49 fernando
11:43:22 robin it spells out what the SEO will do for the
client, but if you do ppc campaigns, that would need to be added. Anything else
you can think of?
11:44:43 robin that's right
peace -- the only suggestion I have is that you try to get a maintenance
contract in with your original contract and spell out those costs too -- keep
them satisfied and coming back for more of your GREAT SEO skills and
strategies!
11:45:02 johnp what about guarantees?
Clients are sometimes looking for something tangible they can measure
by?
11:45:05 peace I refer them to my webpage
with the monthly rates
11:45:29 peace but you are
right I have very few monthly clients right now
11:46:03 robin In our contract, in #4, we discuss FTP access, etc.
One thing that needs to be considered (unless it's considered elsewhere) is
that if YOU create graphics, etc., that the company will own the copyright of
those graphics, not you as the Web designer
11:46:46 peace
http://www.mrwebguru.com/internet-marketing-rates.htm
11:46:59 webman I'm no graphi deisgner, so I only edit
graphis that the lient gies me.
11:47:08 robin
further on, we talk about content, but the issues are the same. From a legal
point of view, if you create the content for a client, unless you turn over the
copyright of the content to the client, you technically still own it. so, that
needs to be addressed in the contract.
11:47:26
guest34 they would own the output graphic or the say PSD file?
11:47:52 guest34 i have a lot of times heard clients say
when they purchase a flash intro, they think they own the FLA file
too
11:48:27 guest34 may want to make it a
statement they only own the output
11:48:35 robin
the thing is, it doesn't matter which as long as you specify which in the
contract and make it very clear
11:49:25 robin
copyright is a very funny thing. when you create something, you own it until
you officially transfer the copyright of that content/graphic to someone else.
Even though you're being paid for it you still have to be very careful here --
it's more for the safety of your clients than you!
11:49:41 prplspud This is a little OT: but I think the
contract should address...
11:49:47 prplspud
whether or not we can disclose they are clients.
11:49:59 prplspud My current policy is not to, which makes it
harder for references...
11:50:10 prplspud but I
sell these services to my clients as a "competitive advantage" so
they
11:50:21 prplspud don't want every Tom Dick
and Harry to know they are using my services.
11:50:24 robin very good point -- I like that -- whether you can
disclose that they are clients in order to use them as testimonials for your
services
11:50:52 robin another point sort of on
that line --
11:51:09 robin some SEO companies
will only work with one bookstore at a time; one bank; one clothing store,
etc.
11:51:25 robin other SEO companies will have
clients that actually compete against each other for the same
keywords
11:52:15 robin you may want to specify
your policy, so that if you work with clients that compete against each other
and they find out that they're both using you, you've covered your
tracks
11:53:07 robin there are certainly
advantages to having clients that use the same keyword focuses -- you can come
up with all kinds of creative ways to market both companies. Bill Gentry used
to do that with all of his online casino clients -- very effectively
11:53:44 robin one thing I want to point out -- in
4
11:54:00 robin if the client's site is light in
textual content, the client will provide relevant text, etc.
11:54:15 guest34 you can also include a fee for
exclusivness
11:54:42 robin that's so important,
because we, as SEO's, don't know the business of our clients like they do, and
we wouldn't be able to create content as effective or as easily as they
would
11:54:52 robin EXCELLENT point Guest! I
love it!
11:56:22 robin we'll have to a major
rewrite of the listing of engines/directories, obviously, and divide them into
PPC's, etc. I also see no reason to mention AOL, since it's powered by Google,
or MSN, since it's powered by Inktomi, LS, etc., but we could put those add'l
engines out to the side of the major engine, like: Google (including AOL
Search, Netscape, etc.)
11:57:20 webman I had a
person like that whose website I needed to add more writing...
11:58:00 webman so what I did was add bullets and hide
writing in the alt tags of the image bullets.
11:58:59 webman (I hope that makes sense)
12:00:17 robin you can do that, but I STRONGLY recommend
beginning to use ALT text for the purpose in which the "tag" was created -- to
describe the image. In other words, you can use your keywords in the ALT text,
but also describe the image so that those who search with the images turned off
can read it, or those with "challenges" can still "see" your site if they're
blind. We have a chat moderator (Robert Roberts) who is going to be holding a
lot of sessions on making sure that our sites are compliant for those with
various handicaps or challenges
12:01:06 robin
Does everyone agree with my comment about combining the engines that are
powered by other engines, rather than list them separately? Or, do you think
it's best to list them separately??
12:01:15
webman I usually do that in the first few words of the ALT tag
12:01:26 webman but thanks for the tip.
12:01:58 prplspud Not separate, too hard to keep up to
date.
12:02:15 webman I think list them
separately. That way, the person whose site you're optimizing will think
they're getting more bang for their buk.
12:02:18
robin by the way, I see that we've included a "covenant not to compete" under
#7
12:02:21 dan List them separately
12:02:25 webman bang for their money
12:03:02 robin I can see both sides -- let me see what I can
come up with when I make these changes, and you can decide if you like them or
not
12:03:22 robin in one section of #6, we talk
about guarantees, which I caution you to be VERY careful about in your
wording
12:03:55 peace list engines in
report?
12:04:20 robin obviously, a lot of #6
will be changed, when it talks about resubmissions, the engines taking "X"
amount of time to index a page (depends on pay inclusion, etc.), and the pay
inclusion area itself (expedited listing service -- that's what we called it
back then)
12:04:36 robin yes Peace -- I'm going
to update this contract and put it online for another review
12:06:06 prplspud I was just going to say, we might need to
include something about some of the inclusions having "terms" on them i.e. 6
months, 1 year and how to handle those.
12:06:47
robin GOOD point Nancy -- most definitely. I knew we'd have a lot of revisions
to make in that area
12:07:21 robin Oh -- I see
that we do have a clause about copyright -- #11. GOOD! we covered a lot of
important bases with this contract!
12:08:22
robin Anyway, we'll pick this up next month -- thanks so much for coming! I'll
post any contracts I get online, as well as updating this one
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