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08:14:19 johna Okay, let's start by outlining a few of the general ways that SEOs charge for their services.
08:15:09 johna Keep in mind these are some of the more popular approaches
08:15:47 johna Some search engine marketers will start with a charge for a set up fee of some sort.

08:16:25 bernie that is what is so bewildering
08:16:34 johna This fee would include the cost of performing research, developing an SEO strategy and of course building some high performance pages.
08:16:42 bernie I see so many different prices
08:17:07 bernie it seems no one follows any particular format
08:17:15 bernie like say web hosting
08:17:34 bernie every one has the same basic pricing structure
08:17:41 bernie but not with SEO
08:17:45 bernie from one end to the other
08:18:12 johna True enough...but I'd like to outline a few strategies so we can think about it
08:18:33 johna Not at all...let's carry on
08:18:59 johna As bernie mentioned ...How much these charges range, can vary widely
08:19:36 johna Often it can depend on the reputation of the SEO. How well your client's spread the word on your services
08:20:17 johna The better your batting average at getting your clients genuine bottom line results in a competitive arena, the more the services are usually worth.
08:21:09 johna For example some firms will set up a set of gateways for $1000 or less while others have charged as much as $10,000 and considerably more.
08:21:25 big bill overheads vary.
08:21:46 benu well that is a huge difference
08:22:10 johna Absolutely ....you are right . Overheads do vary. So how much is the RIGHT amount to charge?
08:22:21 johna Let's talk a bit
08:22:22 mab gateways pages...$1,000 per page?
08:22:32 receptional I find it important to remember that the price is only a fraction of the client's cost. Your client must also consider the cost of understanding your reports (if any), the cost of complaining, and the cost of one member of the company going under a bus. Price
is only the overriding factor for the misinformed.
08:22:44 johna Did you know how many SEOs have said to me they are concerned that
08:23:13 johna they are OVER charging their client.
08:23:39 johna I have much more to say about this but ...in a minute
08:23:48 mab Based on the "quality" of people, PhD in this, PhD in that...
08:24:24 johna There are Pay for performance type models or PAY BY KEYWORD (possibly based on the going rate at Overture)
08:24:42 johna I know of some SEOs who do quite well with this type of a format although it is not my personal preference.
08:25:26 johna Nevertheless, you can set a rate based on how many keyword phrases you get placed within the top 10. Some SEOs might charge between .50 to $5 per month, for each phrase found in the top 10
08:25:49 johna Similar to the demand in Goto
08:26:13 johna This type of strategy works best if you have some type of table made up so the client
08:26:41 johna understands how much they are paying for each phrase and usually there is a competing factor there.
08:27:08 johna In other words, the more competitive the phrase, the more you charge.
08:27:54 johna While this can make you some money, I prefer a plan that is more oriented to the client's success or focused on the client's bottom line results
08:28:25 receptional Getting "secured loans" or "online casino" in the top 10 for $5 per month is a bit tough I would have thought, and it is easy to "buy" a top spot on Overture on the "day of reckoning" which can be a deceptive billing method.
08:28:29 johna Ultimately what we want though, are customers who will stay with us a long time.
08:29:14 webman In this scenario, how many keywords would you work on optimizing for?
08:29:15 johna We want to ensure the customer is happy with their ROI not just top placement
08:29:50 bernie top placement does no good if you're not getting new customers
08:30:24 johna Also, you would want to keep the understanding very clear. You would need a pricing structure that is clear-cut...
08:30:42 johna Keep in mind that when it comes to paying your bill, client's like something that is easy to understand.
08:31:00 johna It is also easier to sell.
08:31:07 burgwald if everyone would stop interjecting we would understand johna better
08:31:09 bernie with that said there is a lot involved in coming to accurate pricing for not only top placement but the satisfaction of the client
08:31:18 bernie sort of a pay for performance
08:32:09 johna Although I do no prefer this strategy for it's complexity...I like simple...let's talk about other things here....(some SEOs have made good money with the pay for performance model)
08:32:41 johna I'm not saying it's wrong or bad
08:33:12 johna I'm just saying I like to focus more on the customers results....so then...
08:33:29 johna Okay, then there are PAY BY THE HOUR type deals
08:34:19 johna In this case, some professionals are charging prices ranging anywhere from $50 to $220 per hour (and some charge more than that).
08:34:36 big bill You have to remember though that the clientele is not only paying you for the work, they are paying you to continually study the volatile market on their behalf. That's very time consuming and while you're not working directly for any individual client while studying, your time must still be paid for.
08:35:35 bernie but clients also don't want to pay for your education either
08:35:42 bernie they expect you to know it
08:35:56 big bill it changes all the time though.
08:36:00 johna Big Bill is correct.....I am assuming that everyone in this room is a professional SEO and already understands the process
08:37:14 johna All I can say about the hourly type plans are pretty strait forward and will involve an estimate of how many "hours" will be required to complete the job.
08:37:30 dan Then, lets hear it from the master johnA
08:38:01 johna Folks love to see their proposal broken down into how many hours per service
08:38:28 johna So at some point you'll need to consider what your services are worth.
08:38:45 johna A few other things
08:39:18 bernie right , how do we do that or at least get a starting point
08:39:28 johna Some SEOs will do residual payment type work. These deals are where the SEO might take a percentage of the profits in return for their efforts.
08:39:47 webman By service, do you mean SEO phase or per search engine or what? I'm not quite clear on this.
08:40:23 johna Obviously, the better job the SEO does, the more profit they can make.
08:40:47 big bill and you'll need a good solid contract.
08:41:05 johna Hold that thought and once I finish I'd love to hear from everyone
08:42:41 johna Keep in mind that these "profit sharing" type strategies can range all over the place, but if you are going to work this way, you usually understand that it can take time to make money and it is absolutely essential that the Web site your sending traffic too, will compel visitors to respond.
08:43:24 johna In other words, this is NOT just about top placement, it's about bottom line business. To me that is what real SEO is all about anyways.
08:44:03 alexp anyone with "boilerplate" examples of pricing?
08:44:23 johna That's where your payoff comes in this type of model. (as the client profits).
08:45:02 johna Some SEOs will do variations of the above to include things like updates, maintenance, reporting all for one monthly fee.
08:45:08 bernie again leading back to pay for performance
08:45:35 johna This can range from $200 to $2500 per month (and more)
08:46:01 johna So the client would pay one monthly fee that would include so many hours of work for whatever purpose.
08:46:22 johna Good money YES but also Good ROI!
08:46:44 bernie right
08:46:49 bernie if they see results
08:46:53 johna Other SEOs have said the same, only they don't keep track of the hours so much as they make sure the client is happy. The hours per month are a guideline but they do whatever it takes to keep
their customer happy for an agreed on fee.
08:47:38 dan Do you know the average hours rough and dirty?
08:47:50 johna I just have two or 3 points I would like to make and then I know you all have questions....
08:48:17 johna Here offer a few other thoughts then...if I may
08:49:47 johna I recently spoke to a person on the
phone claiming to be an SEO who told me about all the hundreds of clients he had. He went on to say that he wanted to study more advanced SEO strategies and asked about attending our live workshop in Orlando next month.
08:50:13 johna By the end of the conversation, I discovered that really, this fellow was NOT an SEO but
08:50:27 johna had done quite well "selling" using the search engines as a selling tool.
08:51:06 johna So now he NEEDED to get these people some results and I think he was quite desperate as he had some contracts were in the 5 digits with major companies.
08:51:31 johna Here is my point.
08:52:32 johna Is it not amazing that while some folks out there are charging major dollars selling hype with no intention of really optimizing. (This one person who was selling with the idea of providing SEO services...admitted to me that he really did not believe it was even possible to get a top 10 position).
08:53:39 johna Yet he was talking about possessing $60,000 contracts (and I believe he was telling the truth!)
08:53:46 receptional I got a similar shock when I went to see an SEO/SEM operation in the UK claiming an UKœ4Million turnover (US6Mill).... I found they had 18 staff, 12 of which were sales people!
08:53:59 big bill all good for us though who can do the work.
08:54:38 johna The clients of course start getting hot when there is not ranking occurring and they are paying out this kind of money
08:55:04 johna The client expect results and they have a right to expect results.
08:55:37 johna Now let me make this clear....just think about this
08:55:44 peace Those guys make SEO look like willy lowmans
08:56:20 johna What about YOU folks? You are different.
08:56:58 johna It strikes me that YOU folks (not just those who is here) but I am talking about all true SEOs, are SO concerned that we MIGHT be over-charging folks?
08:57:31 johna How many here have thought that you might be over charging?????
08:58:10 johna SEOs - I mean folks like you are so special because you REALLY care about the client
08:58:27 peace based on ROI I sometimes feel I've under charged and at other time over.
08:59:58 chezparis What are your recommendations for a beginning SEO person-without any results per say to speak of? How do you convince that first client?
09:00:19 burgwald do your own site
09:00:37 johna My point is...from all the SEOs I have met, I think they seem to be grounded in good solid ethics. All I can say is that SEO seems to attract that type of person.
09:00:59 johna I like that because (so many SEOs have told me their biggest concern is over-charging) it means that by nature, the professional SEO cares more about their customer than many others who charge
astonishing fees in what may amount to a one-time grab.
09:01:15 johna My point is, YOU folks, the true SEOs are so special.
09:01:33 johna Okay, here are my 3 simple tips
09:02:23 johna 1. Remember that many people have been ripped off by false SEOs. Offers to register you with 300,000 search engines abound with mountains of hype etc..etc. Make sure your focus is on the
client's ACTUAL return on investment.
09:03:03 johna This simple principle will grow your business very quickly. Word of mouth in the business community is powerful.
09:03:35 johna 2. Charge well for your time, you are worth it! YOU are going to help others profit.
09:04:33 johna Some new SEOs have just scraped by and for a while, they never realize the benefits their client enjoys as a result of their effort.
09:05:06 johna Know your customer and stay close in touch with them.
09:05:57 johna 3. Remember, some client's don't care if the whole world NEVER finds out that they are prospering online. On the other hand, many clients can be most generous once you make them successful.
They'll bless you unexpectedly and they'll do it often!
09:06:43 johna Okay, I'mto Pata, what is your question?
09:06:47 pata I like per our / per task models. ... Do you find clients respond to "packages" and can they be profitable to the SEO? ALSO........ Do you find you do about the same amount of keyword research regardless of the project? (I usually budget 10 hours for keyword research on any project)
09:09:54 johna Pata: Yes you need to do good keyword research for every client. Someday I hope I'll meet you in person at one of our workshops I can show you much in that area. As far as packages some will
work and some won't. Keep in mind if you come up with one that works for one specific industry, you may want to target others in the same industry.
09:10:03 pata more... sometimes I'll use a set up fee that will involve keyword research only and then a proposal
09:10:49 pata you have met me at one of your workshops
09:10:58 drmatheson JohnA... How might our pricing structure differ if we do SEO work under sub-contract to a partner sales consulting/business development company?
09:10:58 johna I like to do research before I even close the sale. You need to know for a fact that you can impact each new client's business.
09:11:29 bernie John do you do any private consulting in SEO startups
09:12:16 bernie we have the positioning down but would like to discuss with some the important aspects of offering the service correctly
09:12:21 pata do u do approximately the same amount of KW research on every project?
09:14:33 johna Pata, I do as much as I need to find at least one formula for success, I may do more based on the budget of the client. (for example if you're setting up a series of high performance sites).
09:15:40 dan average hours per project. please
09:15:42 peace John, regarding working on a percentage...
09:16:27 peace is there an easy way to monitor what is due to you the SEO? You know what they say about, "who can you trust in business."
09:19:23 johna Personally, I do not enter into these types of arrangements without knowing a client very well. (usually my clients become my friends). There are technical means which are not exactly perfect like being copied on an order form etc. These types of strategies are what I might employ after already bringing a measure of success to a client and so on. Sorry if that is not much help.
09:21:03 peace some times new prospects ask me
about this and I have always said no. That is probably good judgment until you get to know them as a "friend".
09:21:32 johna Sorry Dan, that's to wide ranging to
answer because I sell SEO usually over between 3 to 12 months of service.
09:22:44 dan about 2 hours a day or a month
09:22:48 johna Peace...it's an Excellent idea to know someone before engaging in this fashion. Trust me, you'll end up with lots of friends
09:23:03 bernie The hours on a project would be determined by 1. the amount of engines 2. what you're guaranteeing. 3. how much research is involved
09:23:32 bernie that is how I would go about
getting the hours averaged
09:24:12 journey Pricing varies so much because of the amount of time involved in keyword research, site evaluation (for technical issues like dynamic pages, flash, frames) competitive analysis, etc-- time
consuming. You go through trial & error to figure out how much time you put in.
09:25:14 webman I've done a couple of projects but have no idea how long they took since I had to include learning time as well how much should a beginner seo consider charging to start with?
09:29:49 pata Statement for the group..... I find I
do the same amount (in terms of hours) of KW research, competitive research, and analysis for any type of SEO project. What changes is the results of the research and what I an able to do for that client once I have these answers. Is this the case with anyone else and if so do you use this as a set up charge?
09:30:28 johna Webman, One of the easiest things to do is to discuss it with your client. What is the right price? Really whatever you decide upon with the customer still getting feeling the value for their investment. I cannot suggest anything better because every business is different. Because you are an SEO, I expect by nature you'll be very fair with the customer. When I started 5 years ago, I was actually doing some SEO for FREE
09:32:21 webman but that's the problem! people expect you to do a full internet campaign complete with keyword research and full optimization and submission all for five hundred bucks - then there's no
room for profit
09:32:42 bernie do you have any sample contract you can share with us
09:33:13 bernie that would be customizable for each different type of client
09:33:24 johna Sorry I do not...but Robin at the Academy may have a sample contract.
09:34:19 johna Webman do you know what the prime objective is? It is to work on building your reputation for getting folks results.
09:35:41 chezparis How long have you been doing SEO?
09:35:44 bernie No it should be to satisfy the customer so he refers more business or stays with you so the food stays on the table
09:36:44 johna Bernie....you are saying the same thing. The only way you build your reputation is by getting people results.
09:37:49 bernie Yes what are some of your techniques for keeping your customers instead of them leaving after you have gotten them good results
09:38:12 bernie due to a competitor offering lower prices for same service
09:38:51 bernie building a good strong relationship or are there other things you can do to keep them
09:38:55 pata How much would you charge for maintenance for an ongoing project with 10 doorways that wanted to be in at least the top 20? Also throw in monitoring, reporting on position (monthly) and
ongoing (light) KW research.
09:39:46 bernie I would guess really educating the client would be on the top of the list
09:40:10 johna If you have done your job well, seldom will you ever lose a customer (at least not to the competition). Actually your customers will send you your competitors' quotes and ask your opinion. This
is a big topic and maybe we should carry it on next chat?
09:40:55 johna One of the biggest single things you can do is to teach them the truth and explain things that are EASY to believe.
09:41:47 johna Set reasonable expectations and continually out perform what you told them. I have so much to say on this it is another chat :o)
09:44:34 johna How much depends upon the competing factor but it could range anywhere from $500 to $5000 per month. It totally depends on the scenario.
09:45:49 peace John, I have a couple clients recently, they see my proposal, usually for like... fix site problems, Optimize pages, intensive indexing and 3 month follow-up. They come back with "will you
just do the repairs and the 3 month follow-up?" It seems they want me to do everything else except the SEO work. and when I go into detail with them about what the SEO work is they decide ( I think) to try it themselves. Should (can) I invoice for the time it takes to draft a proposal and phone time if they then say
"maybe some other time"?
09:47:09 webman how do you do a follow up if you didn't submit anything in the first place?
09:47:23 peace I'd rather be able to salvage and close the whole package as ethically that is what they need and that is why I prescribed it all.
09:48:18 bernie I am no pro at this by far peace but I would say it all depends on what the upfront agreement was for your services
09:48:46 pata I have wasted a lot of time (money) trying to convince people of SEO. But these people will never come around or be willing to pay you what you are worth.
09:48:58 big bill Yes, if they want to bring you in as a consultant you don't want them picking your brains for noting.
09:48:59 bernie I would include in original proposal the time needed to complete and phone work or paper work
09:49:35 bernie Or give the them the old accident attorney speech
09:49:55 bernie first consultation is free
09:50:06 bernie and then your hourly rate for advice is .....
09:50:08 johna Absolutely invoice for your phone time. You are the same as any other professional. Also educate well, but also remember your body language, your confidence. How you sound when you speak about SEO really matters. Do you sound desperate like you really NEED the contract (I am sure this is not the case) also talk about the specific objectives that you can meet in solving their challenges. Don't give them too much technical know how.
09:50:19 peace Usually they call me from a referral. After an initial consultation I tell them I will draft a proposal and email it to them. This proposal usually takes between 1/2 hr and 1 1/2 hrs.
09:50:40 bernie then that is your cost to get the job sort of like advertising
09:51:10 bernie but anything after that would and should be billed
09:51:11 johna That's all the time I have today but thank you for sharing on this topic.
09:51:17 journey Can I mention that a great resource for selling seo services and other tips is beyond-seo? Also, semlist.com has info on pricing and services from seo firms, and the buyers
Guide to SEO Firms, 2nd ed.-has good info? (marketingsherpa.com --$139.00)
 

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