Semi-Conducted by Robin Nobles (mainly conducted by her wonderful students since she was LATE!)

Academy of Web Specialists

Gary Woods:Have you had any luck getting indexed on Yahoo?

Fletcher:I haven't checked my submission for the course, I think I have though

Gary Woods:Did Yahoo notify you?

Fletcher:Um, this is confusing. The webmaster for the site was not myself, so I did not get notified.

Gary Woods:I'm the wesbmaster for the site I'm working on but not the owner. So, I put the owners name on the email list. But I have her email me any communications from the Search Engines

Fletcher:Right. Did you get notified?

Gary Woods:Not as of yet. They refused to look at the submission at all until I put an address on the site. But since I put the address on and resubmitted, nothing

Gary Woods:I just notate when I last submitted, then 1 month from that date I submit again. I believe any sooner than that and they get grumpy

Fletcher:Interesting

Gary Woods:Have you had any luck withDirectory?

Fletcher:Not me Gary.

Gary Woods:They didn't index you at all, or they gave you a lousy discription?

Fletcher:Actually, I haven't attempted yet.

adhoc:I have submitted to Yahoo 5 times for the same site

adhoc:and as far as we know they have never looked at the stie

adhoc:have you Gary or Fletcher experienced this?

Gary Woods:I think thatDirectory is going to become increasingly important, and will give us a clue as to how to deal with Yahoo

Fletcher:I have had notification of submission, so I don't think I've been accepted.

Gary Woods:On my first site, submitted several times to Yahoo, and it took about 4 months to get indexed

Fletcher:sorry, make that NO notification,

adhoc:I've never recieved a notification of submission only notice of acceptance

Gary Woods:I never received a notification recognizing submission until they actually indexed the site.

adhoc:that sounds better

Gary Woods:adhoc did they actually index you yet?

adhoc:hello chris can you answer gary's question please

angela:hi chris

Chris Genge:The site has never been indexed and we have never been notified.

Gary Woods:and if they indexed you, were you happy with the description angela:.

Gary Woods:Chris how many times did you submit, did you change the description each time, and how long between submissions did you wait?

Chris Genge:I was submitting once every 2 weeks and the customer is getting real anxious

Max:is this the Yahoo chat session?

angela:yes

Gary Woods:I can't help but feel that every 2 weeks is a little too often. Did you suggest the paid business submission to the client?

Chris Genge:SO I am planning to submit every 4 days, worst they can do is not include the site

Max:what's the paid business submission? I'm only familiar with Yahoo business express.

Gary Woods:Yes Max, we're talking about Yahoo, and waiting for Robin

Chris Genge:We haven't tried paid subscription yet.

Gary Woods:I'm sorry the business express is what I was referring to.

Chris Genge:it is my understanding that every 14 days is quit acceptable.

Max:I'm going to be using it pretty soon here. Looking forward to seeing what it can do for me

Gary Woods:I thought their stated policy was 30 days, but I'm sure you're correct about the 14 days.

Gary Woods:I think the Business Express is about $250, is that you're understanding?

Max:you mean Yahoo? I believe the coursee material said that you should submit every two weeks, and do it at least twice before you send them an email

Chris Genge:What criteria do they use to determine who the review and who they skip

Max:Business Express is $200

adhoc:has anyone had experience with business express?

Chris Genge:I haven't tried business express yet, most of our sites didn't meet old criteria

Max:I think you can find their rules at Yahoo. It's also in the course material

adhoc:which course are you referring to Max

Max:the advanced course

Gary Woods:I think the big criteria is that the site has to accept credit cards. The sites I'm working on are a Realtor and a Mortgage broker so I don't think they qualify,

Max:I suppose not everyone here is taking that

Max:still, you can find all the details at Yahoo as well

Chris Genge:I think most are not taking the advanced course

Max:they have a bunch of prerequisites... relevant content, working links, etc.

adhoc:Yahoo is really limiting things if their criteria is for e-commerce sites

Gary Woods:I think it's a good idea to always check with the current posted submission guidelines for all the sites we submit to. It couldn't hurt....

Chris Genge:How accurate is their submittal guidelines, as we knoe SE's don't update theses

Max:Chris, are you talking about the accuracy of Yahoo's sub. policies?

Chris Genge:As we know most search engines and directories don't even keep accurate info

Mark Nulty:Has anybody had a Express Submission site turned down?

adhoc:Brian have you done any submitting to Yahoo?

Max:well, I'd assume that directories like Yahoo and ODP are more accurate when it comes to adhering to their guidlines, since it's a human that's doing the indexing and not a computer/spider

Brian:Not yet! Still struggling with getting AltaVista to re-index a site I'm working on.

adhoc:Seems like some of your sites would do well with human reviewers

Fletcher:Brian, did you change your site and then ask for re-indexing

Max:hmmm.... AV was pretty screwed up for a while but is supposedly back on track now

Brian:Yes I did Fletcher.

Mark Nulty:I guess the biggest problem I'm having is getting Yahoo! to even take a look at the sites I'm submitting.

adhoc:That seems to be a common problem

Fletcher:I have managed to get high placement on AV, only to have the client change the site and the page titles making dead links (grrr)

adhoc:Would be great to hear a success story and find out what they did

Chris Genge:Yahoo is the Premadona of the Net

Max:and they did that without telling you? nice.

Gary Woods:Fletcher, couldn't you just copy the new pages giving them the old pages URLs?

Fletcher:That is what I will PLEAD to them

Mark Nulty:I've noticed in Yahoo! it seems the response time I get is dependent on the category I submit. Sports sites will get listed reasonably quickly. Travel sites are next to impossible to get them looked at.

Gary Woods:It seems to be in their best interest to take advantage of all your previous work

Brian:Great..... what happens if you don't have any previous work?

adhoc:I wonder if it's because the competition is greater

Gary Woods:Mark, do you think Yahoo is leaning more towards entertainment oriented sites?

adhoc:in the travel section, that is

Max:what, like GO?

Chris Genge:A promoter I know submitted his little brothers sites about a lego he buildt it was indexed in 4 days!!

Mark Nulty:WHat I'm guessing (and it's a guess), is that some editors are more overloaded than others. The travel editor is probably swamped, where the sports editor actually has a fighting chance to look at the sites submitted.

Fletcher:Good point Mark

Gary Woods:So a work issues rather than a policy issue?

Chris Genge:Maybe we should all build lego websites to get Yahoo to notice us!!

adhoc:Guess that makes sense but you'd think they'd increase employee numbers if that's the case

Mark Nulty:It's a guess. I don;t know how Yahoo! assigns submissions.

Chris Genge:Your right about that Brian:

Mark Nulty:But what incentive does Yahoo! have to increase employees (and costs)?

Fletcher:Has anyone every tried to contact Yahoo! ?

Max:probably... plus, it's probably easier to decide where to index a sports site (so many different sports/teams/etc.), than a travel site. Especially if it dealt with general Travel info

adhoc:they are service orientated and if they want to serve their customer (the public)

Gary Woods:I've called Yahoo a couple of times and they've returned the call when I was out.

adhoc:then they should want to list the best sites in every category

Fletcher:Gary, did you make any enquiries, what was their response?

Brian:Any time you have editors deciding on rankings you have 'subjective' material.

Gary Woods:I wanted to change the description of the site, and they were quite polite, but as I said I was out so I was really unable to plead my case.

Max:hey Mark, have you submitted these sites for other people?

Brian:If it is subjective material, then how can we expect to know what they are going to be looking for?

Brian:In the publishing business, how does an editor decide on what book to publish?

adhoc:one problem with using humans, personal taste

Brian:Some, but not all decide on the saleability of the material.

Gary Woods:I think if you keep your description brief, and generic, rather than specific and sales oriented the way you'd like to you're better off.

Mark Nulty:yes. I submitted my e-commerce site (wrestlingclassics.com) and was accepted inside a week. Wrestler Brian Blair's Web site in about that time. A boxing site we built for a promoter in four weeks. I've submitted three travel sites and am 0-3 in the category. And they're all decent sites.

Brian:Others, look entirely at the content and base it on the merit of the work/website itself.

Max:well, I've heard that this is more of a problem with ODP, where you have volunteer editors that may occasionally have sites in the category you're submitting to. There's talk that they sometimes "off" the competition to keep help their own traffic

angela:can you give us tips Mark

Mark Nulty:I'll try Angela. ;)

Max:Mark, have you ever run into problems with email addresses? I'm a little worried that a site I submitted won't be accepted because my email is different from the one used previously

Mark Nulty:First thing I ask is "Who is your compeition?" Then I'll try and find if their competuition is listed and if so, what category

RobinN:I've been so darn busy today -- have a seminar I'm doing at a local university, and darn it if I didn't forget this, even though I put a message on my computer. I'm sorry!

Max:wow, that's a new one. Me remembering to go to class, and the teacher forgetting

Gary Woods:Mark I think that's great advice about looking at where the competition is placed.

Mark Nulty:Second, I try to keep the description as brief as possible. I keep hearing the 20 words/200 characters rule. But I have never had a description not shortened. If a description is shortened, I want to be the one that edits it.

RobinN:Mark -- the problem with Yahoo is that you have no control over it -- they'll do what they want to do.

RobinN:as far as email addresses, they do check that, believe it or not

Mark Nulty:Max, about e-mail addresses.... I don't think it's a problem. I always use my e-mail aaddress, so I can keep track of what';s going on

RobinN:the problem arises if you're trying to get additional domains added for the same company

Mark Nulty:Robin, that's what I mean about descriptions. WHhat is your thoughts on the 20/200 rule?

adhoc:Robin we've been discussing how some categories seem to get indexed while others don't

adhoc:Can you shine some light on the reason of this?

RobinN:That's a tough one. Keep it concise and use your important keywords in it -- toward the beginning of the tag. But, you have no control over it -- and that's the truth. When I submitted the Academy's site, they changed very little of it, but they're notorious for it, and it's usually NOT for the better!

angela:Mark has had good success so we were getting him to share some secrets

RobinN:and yes, if categories are smaller without as much traffic, they do get indexed faster.

RobinN:some editors are faster than others. :)

Mark Nulty:Robin when you are submitting, what rule of thumb do you use for description length?

adhoc:Does being an e-commerce site seem to make any difference?

Mark Nulty:I've noticed my sports and wrestling Web sites get submitted quickly. My travel Web sites are 0-3.

RobinN:I create my description based on what I want to say -- then keep working with it until I get it under the limit! Put important info first, so if they cut, they'll hopefully cut out toward the end.

RobinN:travel is such a competitive area, Mark -- sports is too -- not sure about wrestling (more finetuned)

RobinN:but, stay on top of it. Submit, wait two weeks, and submit again.

RobinN:wait two weeks, and send them an email

RobinN:a NICE email!

Max:yeah, do you think that sports can be narrowed down much easier (sports, teams, athletes, etc.), as opposed to travel, which may be a cause for heightened competition?

RobinN:I had a student tell me recently that when he couldn't get in, he wrote to the webmaster of Yahoo, and he got right in. isn't that wild?

adhoc:what should the e-mail say?

Max:"Index my site now, darnit!"

Fletcher:so contacting them can make a difference?

RobinN:Gosh that's a tough one Max -- depends on the category -- how much you can fine tune it.

RobinN:yes Max! Seriously, when I submitted for the Academy, I wrote them an email after going through two submissions with no luck. I gave them pertinent information -- dates when submitted, categories, etc. I heard back in a few days --

Max:yeah, I suppose.... it just seems to me that travel sites focus on less-specific topics than sports site (with the exception of sports news/merchandise perhaps)

RobinN:But, I really don't recommend contacting the webmaster unless you can't get a response through their regular email submission

Mark Nulty:This may be a stupid question but... what does Yahoo! consider a "business" Web site. I submitted boxinginsider.com. It doesn't have a shopping cart, but it does sell books through a link to Amazon and has commercial banner ads. I submitted it starting under the "Commerce" directory and drilled it down. It was moved to Recreation and Sports.

adhoc:Does it make a difference if you're submitting a site on behalf of a customer?

Max:gosh, I hope not

Max:otherwise I'm in trouble. : )

RobinN:that's a rather gray area at times. There are areas under "education" that could be considered "business," under "computers,' etc. Does it bother you that they put it in Rec rather than business?

RobinN:Let me also say this -- be upfront with Yahoo --

RobinN:don't play games --

RobinN:you can accomplish a lot if you're upfront with them --

Mark Nulty:No! I was pleasantly surprised! I just want to make sure for future clients that I am submitting them to correct directory.

RobinN:for example, you can get additional domains indexed for the same company if you can prove that additional ones don't fit under existing categories, for example

adhoc:Is it better of the owner of the site to send to e-mail or should the person doing the submittal do the inquiring

RobinN:I would think so too, Mark. I would prefer Rec/Sports too, but then again, I wasn't sure how high up in the category section that category was listed.

Fletcher:So you can submit doorway pages and other "product pages" if they are different?

Mark Nulty:It was perfect. It was under "boxing" under "sports recreation

RobinN:NO Fletcher -- not doorway pages -- no

RobinN:additional domains for the same company

RobinN:not mirrors --

Max:could you give that example?

RobinN:adhoc -- it wouldn't matter who submits questions to Yahoo -- a lot of professional positioners submit all of their clients sites

RobinN:Max -- an example would be the Academy (easy for me to spit out!)

RobinN:we have a bunch of domains --

RobinN:

RobinN:globalwebpositioning.com

RobinN:onlinewebtraining.com

RobinN:webpromotionoutsourced.com

Mark Nulty:Adhoc, I have submitted several different clients to Yahoo! and have used the same e-mail address. I haven't found that to be a problem.

Max:but do they lead to the same site, or different parts of the site?

RobinN:so forth. Many are not active yet -- anyway, I just submitted Global -- requested that it be put in a totally different category because of it's international aspect -- but I admitted that it's part of the Academy

RobinN:no - totally different sites/domains/content

adhoc:Have they been indexed Robin?

RobinN:I didn't want to do anything to get in trouble with Yahoo, because they listed me in FOUR categories for the Academy (couldn't believe it)

Mark Nulty:So you would not create separate domains and make a specific page in your exisiting site the index page and submit them individually to Yahoo!? (example eggs.com, butter.co., milk.com, etc.?

Gary Woods:Robin what kind of time frame did it take you to get the 4 domains indexed on Yahoo?

Gary Woods:Robin, wow long did it take to get get you indexed with your 4 domains on Yahoo, and did you submit them all at the same time?

RobinN:I have only submitted Academy and Global, but I just submitted Global a few days ago--

RobinN:Academy is listed 4 times --

RobinN:haven't heard about global yet

Gary Woods:what categories did it get listed in?

RobinN:I don't think they'll let me in with onlinewebtraining, but I should be able to with outsourced

RobinN:a couple of search engine categories (the ones I requested), plus the corresponding regional categories

Max:while you're working on that one, my follow up to the "submitting different domains, same co..." if you have different sites with unique content that may be linked to each other at most, can you also get away with giving them the same design and look?

Gary Woods:what regional categories?

RobinN:if you're trying to get them in different categories, you should be able to have the same design/look -- however ......

RobinN:you can approach it from two diff ways --

RobinN:be honest (which is the approach I'm taking--we'll see if it works!) and tell them that the domains are related -- in fact, my ulterior motive here is that I want a BOLD listing. :)

RobinN:or, use different contact information, different address, don't link the two together, etc. -- and don't tell Yahoo that they're related -

Max:hold on a sec, I take it you're telling them this through the "additional comment' box?

RobinN:you'll hear different opinions on this --

RobinN:yes -- that's what I did -- BUT --

RobinN:if I were working with onlinewebtraining, I would have a tough time with it, because academy would be listed under the same category -- they wouldn't let that fly if they knew they were related

Gary Woods:and you also requested the BOLD listing through that "additional comment" box?

RobinN:yes I did, but they didn't go for it with the Academy

Max:or is the bold listing something you have to hope for and not request

RobinN:I'm hoping they will now -- we'll see

Gary Woods:So on the onlinewebtraining site your name doesn't appear?

RobinN:basically yes, Max, but I'm hoping that by showing them the different connected domains, they'll see the relevance of letting me have it!

RobinN:Gary, it does now -- BUT, I'd have to take a diff approach with that one --

RobinN:I only submit one at a time. My only hope for online is for a little bit of time to pass when the editor may not realize it's the same company!

Gary Woods:How much do you alter the descriptions for the alternate sites?

RobinN:I tailor the descriptions based on the domain itself -- obviously with training, that's my focus. With outsourced, that would be my focus. With global, international is my focus.

Gary Woods:Do you also alter the email address you send them?

RobinN:Oh -- another thing :)

RobinN:when I hear back from the guy at Yahoo about the Academy, I wrote him a VERY nice thank you note for indexing the site

RobinN:figured a few brownie points may come in handy one day. :)

RobinN:heard (not hear) -- sorry

RobinN:not with global, no Gary -- actually, I submitted it under Eric's name, because he's the one who registered it. I could have done it under mine -- no big deal

RobinN:BUT Gary, if I were going to submit online, I would get the registration changed at interNIC -- give a totally different address/contact person/email address.

RobinN:I would change the address on the website

RobinN:remove the connection to the Academy

Gary Woods:Could you have submitted it under robin@webspeicla, nobles@academywe etc.

RobinN:then, when the interNIC change has gone through, I'd submit it to Yahoo

RobinN:I'd TRY to find a different category than the one that the Academy is under

RobinN:yes gary -- I could have

Max:a question that might pertain to SEs and directories in general... I've run searches for URLs before, and sometimes a link to the URL itself has poppsed up, but nothing else. Does this mean it's actually indexed, or is the engine simply putting up the URL I tried and telling me to give it a shot

RobinN:that's what I do with Snap, which is probably crazy! they have a cookie on my machine, so it's a little ridiculous that I do that!

Gary Woods:Couldn't delete the cookie?

RobinN:sure Gary -- or there are programs that'll do it for you

Gary Woods:Is it a text file?

RobinN:Max -- I'm not sure about your question --

Max:can you explain the relevance of cookies? Now I'm hungry

RobinN:Max -- don't understand what you're asking about links -- please ask again!

RobinN:cookies -- many of the engines (maybe all??) use cookies -

RobinN:altaVista is particularly bad about it --

Fletcher:Doesn't the SE put a cookie on your ,achine when you submit your URL?

RobinN:so, if you submit one page, many times, they won't accept any other submissions from you for that whole day --

RobinN:now this is a little tough if you're in the search engine positioning business and are working with clients sites!

RobinN:yes Fletcher --

RobinN:with AV, it's dated --

Fletcher:I ahve tried to delete the cookie.txt and then submit another site. Can I get away with this?

Max:Robin, let's say I ran a search on AltaVista for http://mydomain.com. The results come up and all I get is a link to "http://www.mydomain.com" No description, no title, or anything... is this a sign that it couldn't find the specific site I was looking for (therefore it's not indexed) and is just providing a link to the URL I typed in?

RobinN:sure -- or, get offline if you're using an ISP and get back online --your ip address will change.

RobinN:Max, does your page have a description/title tag, or is this an interior page that doesn't?

RobinN:No, I've never seen an engine present a link when it can't find a site. It simply says there are no results.

Fletcher:does using the URL:www.mysite.com actually find your site? I've never had it work

RobinN:it differs between the engines (scream!)

Fletcher:What i mean is in the search box

RobinN:with some engines, it'll work. With others, you have to enter it differently. To be honest, that's something that I always have to look up myself, depending on what engine I'm using.

Gary Woods:There's a cool little piece of software from Hiawatha that helps with verification calle HiVerify

RobinN:have you noticed that the results from searching through IE's AV search is different than what is at AV's site itself?

Gary Woods:AVs results seem to vary from minute to minute sometimes

RobinN:That did look cool, Gary. Did you notice that I added it to the advanced course?

RobinN:they do Gary!

RobinN:but this is even weirder -- where sites dominate the rankings through IE, but AV groups results.

Gary Woods:I ended up returning all the rest of the Hiawatha suite, but I probably should have kept HiVerify

RobinN:only works with FrontPage, doesn't it?

Mark Nulty:Take your time and answer this question when it comes up. We were talking earlier about submitting multiple domains for the same company to Yahoo! If you have a Web site called. wwwgroceries.com with pages about eggs, butter and bread. Could you create a domain called www.eggs.com and use the eggs page as the index, www.bread.com using the page about bread as the index page, etc. and then submit each domain (showing different pages from the same site) to Yahoo?

Gary Woods:No they have a generic HiVerify version

RobinN:Mark -- it depends on whether you're trying to get in the same category --

RobinN:if you can prove to Yahoo that a new domain doesn't fit into the same category of your other one, you stand a much better chance at getting it in

Mark Nulty:Is the key submitting them to different categories?

RobinN:YES -- it is

RobinN:BUT, if you're going to try to sneak it in, you'd be better off submitting under different contact information, NOT link the domains togethrr in the beginning, etc.

RobinN:depends on your situation and what you're trying to accomplish

Gary Woods:If you submit under different contact information, do you think they're sill picking up the IP address?

RobinN:good question -- what I would do is, I would change the contact information on the registration form. Then, I woudl submit under the new name -- totally different. I wouldn't worry about the IP address -- or submit it from a different machine. :)

RobinN:after it's accepted into Yahoo, then link them together

RobinN:and, if you write to Yahoo, don't tell them you submitted on a certain date and nothing has happened yet -- because they will check. :|

RobinN:be honest --

Mark Nulty:are subdomains doomed? in other woods, does www.wrestlingclassics.com/louthesz have any shot of being accepted since it is a subdomain?

RobinN:just tell them exactly what you've done

RobinN:not separately from wrestling classics, no

Fletcher:YOu link them by emailing them after they have been accepted?

RobinN:I seriously doubt you could get a subdomain listed there, even if it were like this: http://wrestling-classics/wrestling.classics.com/index.htm

RobinN:yes Fletcher -- link them together by links on your pages, address information changed, etc.

RobinN:opps -- take out that period inbetween wrestling and classics!

RobinN:the key is to submit under different categories -- or, making sure that everything is different enough that they won't be able to connect the two at all

Mark Nulty:I would submit them to different categories (wrestler websites vs. wrestling)

Max:can you get in any serious trouble for submitting a site that's already indexed under "new submission" instead of "re-submission?" Will that type of error get you banned, or will they simply ignore your submission.

RobinN:you need to submit it under a "change" because they'll instantly know that it's not new. You won't get it changed -- your submission will be deleted.

RobinN:are any of you editing on the ODP?

RobinN:that taught me SO much when it comes to submitting to a directory Gary Woods:No, they turned me down in about 15 minutes. What do you think a record?

Max:I bet I could do it in under 10

RobinN: -- that is a little fast! Try submitting under a category with no editor that's very small :)

RobinN:they won't let you edit a large one, that's for sure -- have to be there a while and "proven" yourself

Gary Woods:That sounds like waiting for Robin to show up to a chat room!!

RobinN:ha!

RobinN:of course, you'll never let me live it down!

Max:Animals:Regional:Countries:Austria:Mammals:Rodents:Squirrels I doubt that cetgory has an editor

RobinN:good point, Max! do you know anything about squirrels?

Gary Woods:So, what have you learned about submitting from being an editor?

Max:well, they've been known to attack people around here. I don't know anything about Austrian Squirrels, sorry

RobinN:with the ODP, all editors have an editor's page that lists all of their categories --

Max:perhaps that should be my dummy site

RobinN: yes, Max, or use our armadillo site :)

Max:are Yahoo editors paid, as opposed to ODP?

RobinN:the thing to know is that you may show up as an editor of a particular category, but you may be able to edit in numerous other categories under that (or even above) if you're also an overall editor

RobinN:Yes Max, I'm sure (at least I would sure hope so!). Snap editors are paid

Max:(I dunno... squirrels are so much cuter. I t=may generate more traffic based on fuzziness alone)

RobinN:my point is, I have submissions sometimes in every single one of the categories I edit in a particular area

RobinN:from the SAMe website

Gary Woods:I got indexed on Snap almost instantly, I'm sure that'll change

RobinN:my name may not be listed, but I'm still an editor

RobinN:in other words, it strongly resembles spam if someone submits their site in about 5 categories under me, and I catch it!

RobinN:yes Gary - they're very fast right now -- LiveDirectory

RobinN:It could easily be that way with Yahoo --

RobinN:in other words, the same editor may be editing "wresting" as "wrestler" --

RobinN:soooooooo, keep that in mind. :)

Gary Woods:Are your cateogories closely related?

RobinN:in some cases, yes --

RobinN:in other cases, no!

RobinN:I edit in the diabetes category, and I also edit in specialized search engines

Gary Woods:Are your own sites listed in those categories?

RobinN:No, not in either of those

Fletcher:Sorry you are an editor for who?

Gary Woods:Do you have expertise in those other areas?

RobinN:I'm an overall editor in Writers Resources and Writing -- huge category -- tons of subcategories under both, and I can edit in every single one of them

RobinN:my son has diabetes, so yes, a lot of experience there

RobinN:ODP Fletcher --Directory Project

Max:how often are you reuired to edit all of them? Aren't there people "below" you who take care of most of it?

Gary Woods:Your site must be listed some where in Writers Resources?

Mark Nulty:Would you recommend that your Internet savvy clients become editors in their specific ODP category? If for no other reason, they could make sure their site gets listed.

RobinN:yes, Gary, it is -- one place

RobinN:Max -- there are no required number of submissions to edit -- but if you don't edit for a certain period of time, you lose your access

Gary Woods:One, you should take this course I know about that tells you get other domains, and submit them

RobinN:Mark -- you may not be able to get in your own particular category -- they've gotten burned pretty badly with people who become an editor JUSt to get their own site in the index, then do nothing else

Mark Nulty:My biggest problem with ODP is that there doesn't seem to be any organization. I kind of floated away because it seems I was editing the same site over and over or another editor would overrule a decision I made to include or delete a site.

RobinN:the editors of the ODP have really started cracking down on spam in a major way -

Max:plus, I was relaying before that there's talk that some ODP editors exclude potential competing sites

RobinN:they won't accept any affiliate sites --

RobinN:mirror domains are out

RobinN:yes, that's a problem, but I haven't had it recently Mark -- in the beginning I did, and I quit that category! Life's too short!

RobinN:I edit in way too many categories -- you can't imagine. Ridiculous --need to drop a bunch

Mark Nulty:So I should give ti a shot again? It's been so long I've probably been dropped as an editor

RobinN:which category were you in?

RobinN:for one thing, things have picked up considerably since I started doing this!

RobinN:for a while, I had no submissions. now, I have hundreds!

Mark Nulty:professional wrestling category

RobinN:in the beginning, I went out and found sites myself!

RobinN:Mark -- the thing I like about it is that I have such a feel for what it's like to be an editor - it's helped me so much when submitting to Yahoo and other directories. and yes, the ODP is major important now, let's face it. If you're an editor in your own area, you've got it made!

RobinN:you can get away with things that you couldn't if you weren't editing -- like accepting interior pages, etc.

Gary Woods:So, what are the things that tick you off from people submitting to you?

RobinN:WRITING THEIR TITLES AND DESCRIPTIONS IN ALL CAPS

RobinN:putting a bunch of keywords one right after the other as the title or description

RobinN:capitalizing every word in the description -- when it shouldn't be!

RobinN:submitting in every one of my related categories!

RobinN:sending me nasty email asking why I haven't accepted their site and demanding that I do so ............

Max:what baout saying how great their site is in their description... you've gotta love that! "This is your #1 source for information about Austrian Squirrels!"

Mark Nulty:In other words, people that don't read the rather simple instructions, huh?

RobinN:No, I don't like "snake oil salesmen" tactics either!

RobinN:exactly!

Gary Woods:That was a great list, I think I'm going to post it on my computer

RobinN:or, really longggggggggggggggggggggg descriptions

RobinN:Oh this one is hilarious --

RobinN:I also edit in Business: Publishing -

RobinN:and I got a submission the other day under "Editing Services" RobinN:they misspelled tons of words in the description/title!

RobinN:talked about how their specialty was proofreading and editing, yet you should have seen their submission!

Mark Nulty:In defense, it's really easy to be genuinely excited about your site. Sometimes it;s hard to distinguish between hype and genuine excitement about your work

RobinN:you see, when they do that, my choices are to take the time to change it, let it go in my category wrong (which I won't do), or reject it --

RobinN:oh I agree Mark --

Gary Woods:Do you rewrite the descriptions, or usually just truncate them?

RobinN:I don't rewrite them. I may cut down the length, or I'll take out all caps. The only time I rewrite is if they just list word after word.

RobinN:another thing that bugs me -- not to list a description at all, and let me GUESS what it is!

RobinN:or, going to a page that has a huge "under construction" sign up, graphics that don't load, and a "last updated" date of about a year ago (and yes, it's happened)

Gary Woods:Do you usually end up cutting from the end of the description>

RobinN:why they submit to the ODP, I'll never know!

RobinN:yes I do Gary -- exactly. That's why I said what I did about Yahoo -- it's easier to take it off the back

Mark Nulty:When I was active editing sites in ODP, I remember being impressed with a well-written, polite letter asking me and other editors to look at the site.

RobinN:oh and for goodness sake submit in the right category!

RobinN:YES Mark -- exactly --

Gary Woods:That's kind of a standard rule in journalism, so I thought it would apply

RobinN:yes -- it does

RobinN:but, if you have a site listed already, and if you want to be listed in a diff category, write to the editor and ask nicely

RobinN:it works quite well, for me anyway. I've never turned anyone down if they asked nicely.

RobinN:now, here's an interesting thing .......

RobinN:let's say that you have this site in the ODP:

RobinN:http://www.yourwebsite.com

RobinN:let's say that you want to try to get an interior page indexed -

RobinN:for example: http://www.yourwebsite.com/squirrels-are-cool.com

RobinN:when you submit to the ODP, the editor will pull up your site's submission information, and it will NOT show that you're already in the ODP

Gary Woods:I've been corresponding to an ODP editor concerning a site I'm working on. I would like the description to read "Home Loans for Los Angeles and Ventura Counties" and he will only give me Financial services for La Crescenta. Any suggestions?

RobinN:in other words, the form will NOT show that your main site is in it

RobinN:so, unless the editor back tracks to see if you're listed anywhere else, you may be able to get some interior pages in

RobinN:my gosh Gary -- why would he care what your description is in that regard? that's a little ridiculous

RobinN:I wouldn't care -- I'd change it (is he a competitor, by the way?)

Gary Woods:It seemd so to me. I felt it was descriptive and not hype.

Gary Woods:I don't know whether he's a competitor or not.

RobinN:yes, and you're wanting your keywords in that description. He's obviously not wanting those keywords in your description --

RobinN:which is why he's probably a competitor (or a real jerk)

Gary Woods:He told me the description was part of the category title, so it made it redundant

Mark Nulty:Is there someone that you can appeal an editor's desicion too?

RobinN:yes, appeal to an editor ABOVE that person --

RobinN:in the category "tree"

RobinN:write to that person individually

Mark Nulty:What if the category you are submitting to does not have an editor at the moment?

Gary Woods:Then it's time for squirrel man to apply to be an ODP editor

RobinN:then back up to the category above it and write to them -- because those folks can edit ANY category underneath them in the category tree

RobinN:exactly. :)

RobinN:most of the ODP editors are nice people, and they'll honor your requests if you're nice about it.

RobinN:Gary's got a real jerk for an editor, but I'd sure back up and talk to an editor above him and see if I could get it accomplished

RobinN:write to that person and ask if your description can be changed, and explain why

RobinN:you don't even have to mention that the other guy wouldn't do it. :)

RobinN:bye -- thanks for coming, and I'm SO sorry that I forgot about this-

Conducted by Robin Nobles (semi-conducted by Robin!)

Academy of Web Specialists

Chat Session on Yahoo! Tips

February 15, 2000